VeggieBoards banner
21 - 40 of 56 Posts
Elaine, what I tried to explain in my last message was that it is not just about the specific provisions about battery cages that is at issue, but also the ability to enforce the provisions. If this passes, I see this going down the same road as the federal Humane Slaughter Act. It is completely unenforced, yet causes well meaning citizens to erroneously think that animals die a painless death.

Also, I dispute that there is any evidence that welfare reforms cause a decrease in meat consumption. The countries which have a more active animal advocacy movement are inherently going to be the countries which have both more active vegan advocacy campaigns, and more active welfare reform campaigns. Hence, a correlation between welfare campaigns and an increase in veganism does not imply a causation.

Keep in mind that the passage of the Humane Slaughter Act was supported by the beef industry, just as the passage of this proposed federal law on Battery Cages is supported by the egg industry.
 
YES YES YES brilliant film. Its NOT about us its about them. Thankyou for posting this.

I'm glad that so many of you share my position. I have been quite offensively abused by Francione supporters because I call them out on their self aggrandisement and also their demands that us activists also share their extreme views on every other political position.

I want a began future but we need reforms now. Last saturday I saw two men on the Cambodia-Thai border (I live in Thailand) try and beat a dog to death to eat. They were attempting to give it as much pain as possible. Since I'm a massive westerner and they were half my weight they fled when I charged at them (and I realsed the poor dog) the Francionists call me a racist and think we should not criticise the worst cultures in the world -like China, Vietnam and Cambodia.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post

Also, I dispute that there is any evidence that welfare reforms cause a decrease in meat consumption. The countries which have a more active animal advocacy movement are inherently going to be the countries which have both more active vegan advocacy campaigns, and more active welfare reform campaigns. Hence, a correlation between welfare campaigns and an increase in veganism does not imply a causation.
Perhaps you should read this study:

http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/animalwelfare/MF2951.pdf
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

Perhaps you should read this study:

http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/animalwelfare/MF2951.pdf
That study only shows a correlation between meat consumption and media coverage of how farm animals are treated. This is not the same thing as a correlation between welfare laws and meat consumption. This just means that should put more effort into informing the public about how farm animals are treated.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post

That study only shows a correlation between meat consumption and media coverage of how farm animals are treated. This is not the same thing as a correlation between welfare laws and meat consumption. This just means that should put more effort into informing the public about how farm animals are treated.
Well, welfare laws ensure media attention whereas other methods may not. As I said earlier, "even if the bill does not pass, getting media attention about the bill can result in changes in consumer behavior." Combined with the improved conditions for animals, those two reasons justify support of welfare laws without any additional support, although there is plenty of additional support as expressed in Nick Cooney's video above.

Listen, you and I both agree that leafleting is an effective strategy to help end the oppression of animals, don't we? We're both leafleters for Vegan Outreach.

Your profile: http://www.adoptacollege.org/profile.php?id=332

The profile for my organization: http://www.adoptacollege.org/profile.php?id=1087

We both also agree that media attention on AR issues is a good thing. At least we have those things we agree on.
 
Agreement on leafleting as an effective strategy and media attention on AR issues being good hardly settles the Welfare vs. Abolition debate though. A strictly abolitionist strategy would entail leafleting for veganism. Also, the primary focus of the media attention is on the treatment and welfare of the animals and not on the violation of their inherent value so it would be more appropriate to call it an attention on AW issues, not AR issues. This is not a matter of semantics since the treatment-use dichotomy is integral to the debate on whether to pursue welfare reform. Furthermore, as a clearly abolitionist strategy has never at any point been pursued by a major animal protection group, we cannot with any certainty comment on how this would affect media attention or consumer practices.

Unless I have read the article wrong, nowhere does it suggest that meat consumption declined over the period but only that "pork and poultry demand increases over the last decade would have been 2.65 percent and 5.01 percent higher" in the absence of the media attention. So it would be erroneous to say that the media attention lead to an associated fall in demand, the study only seems to suggest that the increase in consumption was less than estimated. Also, by focusing on cows, pigs and chickens slaughtered for meat, the study didn't address whether those people who had indeed reduced their demand for these meats just switched to consuming more fish, eggs and dairy, which often involve significantly more suffering.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
For the record, I am not advocating that everyone should support animal welfare laws. I am ONLY advocating that animal advocates should not attack or interfere with other advocates' work on animal welfare laws, even if they believe that work is an ineffective strategy for animal liberation. There is absolutely no proof that any particular strategy is counterproductive; there is only evidence that suggests some strategies may be more effective than others. And there is more evidence - for a myriad of reasons - that supports an incremental welfare-based stratgey than a "strictly abolitionist strategy". Please read Change of Heart by Nick Cooney or Animal Impact by Caryn Ginsberg.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

For the record, I am not advocating that everyone should support animal welfare laws. I am ONLY advocating that animal advocates should not attack or interfere with other advocates' work on animal welfare laws, even if they believe that work is an ineffective strategy for animal liberation. There is absolutely no proof that any particular strategy is counterproductive; there is only evidence that suggests some strategies may be more effective than others. And there is more evidence - for a myriad of reasons - that supports an incremental welfare-based stratgey than a "strictly abolitionist strategy". Please read Change of Heart by Nick Cooney or Animal Impact by Caryn Ginsberg.
If someone cares passionately about the injustice perpetrated daily against sentient non-humans and strongly feels that a particular strategy is a profligate use of limited resources in tackling deeply embedded speciesist practices, why would they not criticise said strategy? If one believes there are alternative, more fruitful avenues to animal liberation, shouldn't one actively promote those beliefs and criticise those reforms that are perceived to be largely ineffective.

It depends on what you consider to constitute "attacking and interfering" with welfare laws. Disseminating information, either online or in person, that questions spending vast amounts of money, time, effort etc. on attempting to legislate for changes in routine factory farm procedures and conditions? Promoting vegan advocacy as a more efficient use of resources? Would you categorise this as an effort to thwart welfare reform?

Aside from the case you mentioned, where Francione recommended voting against Proposition 2 in California (or at minimum, abstaining from voting), I can't really think of too many instances that involve abolitionists seeking to undo a welfare reform. On this particular issue, he argued that people should vote against because it would send a message to animal welfare groups that "humane use" is never justified and that the legal change would only placate public moral concern about consuming tortured beings and cause them to increase their consumption.

I disagree with Francione because voting against the initiative would never be construed as a rejection of use under all circumstances, especially given that practically everyone voting against Prop 2 did so because of fears of job losses, businesses suffering and having to pay higher prices for eggs. There is no cultural context in which a vote against could be interpreted as an unequivocal rejection of animal use. Secondly, despite some anecdotal evidence, there is limited, if any, empirical evidence that establishes a causal link between welfare reform and increased consumption of animal products.

Nevertheless, the majority of abolitionist animal advocates aren't conveniently situated with regards to fighting welfare reform because they operate in an environment in which the dominant paradigm is one of exploitation being justified if a certain arbitrary degree of consideration is given to suffering. Much of the literature criticising welfare reform focuses on the limited economic costs that are supposedly imposed on producers, the effects on productivity of implementing a particular method, the partnership between institutional exploiters and animal protection groups that results from or precedes such legislative change and whether diverting all resources into only advocating for veganism would lead to quicker and greater strides on the road to liberating animals from oppression. These points I certainly see as being worthy of consideration and serious discussion and, despite proclamations from both sides, the matter is far from settled.
 
Francione is demanding all or nothing. He wants an non capitalist anarchist state and a total abolition overnight of all animal exploitation. It isn't going to happen. If he wants to convert college radicals to veganism then kudos to him but he isn't going to change anything about the world the rest of us living. So he should stay in his ivory tower.
 
If s person wants to help animals, the should volunteer at a shelter, pass out pro-vegan leaflets, etc. Leave the time sucking, pointless internet squabbles to someone else

The only way to win the "welfarism versus abolitionism" debate is to not play. There will always be someone with an opinion.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beforewisdom View Post

If s person wants to help animals, the should volunteer at a shelter, pass out pro-vegan leaflets, etc. Leave the time sucking, pointless internet squabbles to someone else

The only way to win the "welfarism versus abolitionism" debate is to not play. There will always be someone with an opinion.
Time sucking, pointless internet squabbles were what lead me to be vegan in the first place. Some people like to develop their ideas through discussion (aka squabbles).

To each their own! To the squabblers, the volunteers, the abolitionists, the leafleters, the animal welfare supporters alike!
 
When farm workers are convicted of cruelty to animals, it just reinforces the public's perception that there are laws on the books ensuring that animals are treated humanely, that cruelty is rare, and that in these rare cases the people responsible are sent to prison.

This is the exact opposite of the message that people need to be exposed to: That in modern animal agriculture, virtually all the animals are literally tortured their entire lives, and that this is legal and standard practice. It is the cases where that animals are treated well before slaughter which are exceptionally rare.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eugene View Post

When farm workers are convicted of cruelty to animals, it just reinforces the public's perception that there are laws on the books ensuring that animals are treated humanely, that cruelty is rare, and that in these rare cases the people responsible are sent to prison.
Do you have any proof of that whatsoever? Any studies at all?
 
I have gotten MANY comments in reply to my online campaigns from people who think that most animals are treated humanely, and that the factory farming videos are just propaganda. In fact, this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions there is. When I try to dispel this misconception, people frequently respond by sighting cases of farm workers who were sent to prison for being cruel to animals, which they view as proof that the system is working well.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Well, there have been at least two studies that suggest that undercover videos of farmed animal abuse - with or without criminal conviction of the abuse -result in viewers' increase in willingness to learn more as well as their willingness to eat fewer animal products. Here are some links:

http://www.farmusa.org/PPV/

http://www.humanespot.org/content/video-comparison-study

Moreover, Gary Francione himself has admitted there is no empirical proof for his claim that "improving animal welfare makes people feel less uncomfortable about animal exploitation." It's just something he thinks is true. No one has ever come close to offering any proof. Link to a blog post with a video of Francione making that statement: http://www.vegansoapbox.com/criticism-is-not-enough/
 
Elaine, I am familiar with the links you provided, and they have nothing to do with the point I was making. Of course exposing people to factory farming footage is going to make people more likely to move towards veganism. This is what I do. However, I take great care in the video I show to delete any scenes which are isolated incidents of farm workers being cruel to animals, as these scenes tend to discredit the entire video in the eyes of many people, causing them to think that all the factory farming scenes in the video are also just rare isolated incidents. I have tried the video both ways, and I have seen that with the approach I am presently using, a far greater percentage of the people are saying that they are going veg*n.
 
Eugene , whilst I don't agree with your position here I think you are doing incredibly important work and I commend you thoroughly for it. I'm an ex Soldier and I can't actually watch this stuff.

Your stomach must be strong as your heart buddy!
 
Quote:
When farm workers are convicted of cruelty to animals, it just reinforces the public's perception that there are laws on the books ensuring that animals are treated humanely
People often reach that conclusion with no evidence whatsoever. It's a fair bet that many people believe there are well enforced anti-cruelty laws even if they have never heard of anyone being convicted of criminal abuse. It's part of the psychic defense system of believing what we hope is true is actually true if not believing it would be costly.
 
21 - 40 of 56 Posts