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How do vegan cheeses melt properly?

5.6K views 22 replies 17 participants last post by  Poppy  
#1 ·
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Seeing that these cheeses(ex. Soymage and Imearthkind) are vegan(no casein used at all), how could they melt properly? What ingredients were used in those vegan cheeses to replace casein(the only thing suppossedly been able to make cheeses melt properly)? I'm curious. Maybe those ingredients you list can replace casein as a cheese melter.
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#2 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinosaur Man View Post

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Seeing that these cheeses(ex. Soymage and Imearthkind) are vegan(no casein used at all), how could they melt properly?
They don't. "Proper" melting of cheese is one of the things you have to give up if you're vegan.

Jim
 
#3 ·
Jim, I'm not sure that that's entirely true. I have Tofutti mozzarella slices sometimes, and while they don't taste much like mozzarella they certainly do melt - enough to make a cheese on toast substitute which I find very tasty.

As to why they do melt, I don't know - I'm not a food scientist.
 
#4 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Heart View Post

Jim, I'm not sure that that's entirely true. I have Tofutti mozzarella slices sometimes, and while they don't taste much like mozzarella they certainly do melt - enough to make a cheese on toast substitute which I find very tasty.

As to why they do melt, I don't know - I'm not a food scientist.
Interesting. Does it melt into a puddle, or does it melt "properly" into a substance with a stringy texture? I'm very impressed if it melts into a stringy textured substance and quite perplexed at how they could duplicate casein properties with the ingredients listed on their site. Maybe Syntax knows.

Jim
 
#5 ·
tofutti melts wonderfully imo, but i'm not quite sure what you mean by "properly". if by "stringy" you mean elastic, like having some snot-like property, then no, it doesn't. but it melts completely, turns golden, and tastes amazing.

what makes them melt is the fat content - solid at room temperature, melts when heated.
 
#6 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine View Post

tofutti melts wonderfully imo, but i'm not quite sure what you mean by "properly". if by "stringy" you mean elastic, like having some snot-like property, then no, it doesn't. but it melts completely, turns golden, and tastes amazing.

what makes them melt is the fat content - solid at room temperature, melts when heated.
I'm just guessing the snot-like property was what Dinosaur Man meant.

Jim
 
#7 ·
The difference between Vegan and Non-Vegan Cheese: Both will melt. It's a matter of elasticity post-melt. Non-vegan cheese will have that sort of pull to it after melting and cooling a bit. Vegan cheese stays in place once melted. It won't pull, it will crumble.

The only "vegan" cheese with elasticity can be found at Gianna's Grille in Philly... However, this leads many of us to claim it CAN'T be vegan.
 
#8 ·
Vegan Gourmet cheese does melt! I only had it once, but it got all bubbly and oozy. However, it didn't get stringy and snot-like, as real cheese does. For me, that was an improvement.
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharityAJO View Post

The only "vegan" cheese with elasticity can be found at Gianna's Grille in Philly... However, this leads many of us to claim it CAN'T be vegan.
Their cheese is out of this world. It melts perfectly, too. I always say I wish they could sell it retail.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine View Post

what makes them melt is the fat content - solid at room temperature, melts when heated.
That's true, but what makes them stringy is casein, the milk protein. It's basically a natural glue.

I found the best solution for me was to just not try. I mean, you stop craving cheese after like a few months. The casein molecules become casomorphin, a molecule similar to (and addictive like) morphine. It's basically an addiction that relents after a few months of no cheese.

Edit: Changed dyslexic spelling of casomorphin around. Now, all of the accuracy, none of the pride!

Less fillingly, same great tastingly yours,

Dr. Schmeebis
 
#12 ·
I'd forgotten that cow cheese melts and becomes like snot. Oh yuk and I hope some cheese manufacturers get to read this.

I like scheese and toffutti and would probably eat any vegan 'cheese' if it weren't so expensive. The melting quality isn't needed on a pizza, it's just a convention. Blobs taste good too.
 
#14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Schmeebis View Post

That's true, but what makes them stringy is casein, the milk protein. It's basically a natural glue.

I found the best solution for me was to just not try. I mean, you stop craving cheese after like a few months. The casein molecules become morphocasein, a molecule similar to (and addictive like) morphine. It's basically an addiction that relents after a few months of no cheese.
Do you mean casomorphin?

Are you referring to the research done by Neal Barnard about food addictions to beef and cheese? The same Neal Barnard who is the president of Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, which the American Medical Association has seriously denounced? http://www.ama-assn.org/apps/pf_new/.../H-460.963.HTM

PCRM is an animal rights organization, and the science that they put forth is highly biased.

Here is an overview of PCRM by the American Council on Science and Health,

http://healthfactsandfears.com/high_...tee021402.html

Jim
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimdavis View Post

IDoes it melt into a puddle, or does it melt "properly" into a substance with a stringy texture?
The Toffutti "mozarella style" melts pretty much like traditional cheese. It actually melts more like a chedder, in a gooey lump, and doens't do the the stringy texture of actual mozarella.

The ingredients on the pack are: Water, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, tofu, soy protein, stabiliser (carageenan), maltodextrin, vinager, corn starch, emulsyfing salt (calcium phosphate, potassium phosphate), potatoe flakes, salt, adipic acid, soy lecithin, natural flavours, natural colours.

Also of interest is the nutritional break down, which is, per 100g

protein - 10.5g

carbohydrate - 10.5g

of which sugars - 5.2g

fat - 26.3g

of which saturates 10.5g

Quick background: Dairy cheese is a mixture of (principly) proteins and fats. When it 'melts', the fats melt, leaving the proteins as a soft mass with the fats mixed together (the proteins do not actually 'melt' per se). This mixture of molten and solid substances is partly why it has a soft texture (although there's a lot more to that). If you think of something like paper pulp in water - the mixture as a whole is mushy, and is made up of liquid water and solid cellulose fibres - molten cheese is roughly like that, in terms of physical states.

The Toffutti stuff takes a similar intent. The ratio of saturated to unsaturated fats will have influence over the melting point of the material. When the fats melt, the soya proteins (note that tofu is more or less a mixutre of soy proteins and starch) and the various starches are left as a mush, which floats around in the liquid fats.

The next trick is to get the whole thing to stick together. That's down to a carful choice of proteins - as mentioned about, you want them a bit glue like. Enter soy protein, carageenan and possible those lectins too. In fact, depending on how they've processed it, some of the starch might help with that too - in the same way that a sauce that's over thickened with starch will end up a goopy mass, that's what's wanted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Schmeebis View Post

I mean, you stop craving cheese after like a few months. The casein molecules become morphocasein, a molecule similar to (and addictive like) morphine. It's basically an addiction that relents after a few months of no cheese.
Hmm - I find that difficult to accept. Morphine and casein are rather different, and just being similar to morphine is meaningless when talking about any of it's properties. Can you cite something at me on that - the only thing I can find on the PCRM site carefully avoids giving any references at all, which makes me rather suspicious about such claims.
 
#17 ·
One of my soy cheeses melts nicely under the grill (it contains casein).

The other shrivells when toasted. But one day I put it in the microwave for some reason, and it melted all thick and creamy and beautiful.

I guess each cheese has it's own melting personality.
 
#18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimdavis View Post

Do you mean casomorphin?

Are you referring to the research done by Neal Barnard about food addictions to beef and cheese? The same Neal Barnard who is the president of Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine, which the American Medical Association has seriously denounced? http://www.ama-assn.org/apps/pf_new/.../H-460.963.HTM
OK now I look really foolish! Not only did I have a lys-dexic moment with casomorphin, calling it morphocasein, but I also forgot my citations! D'oh! Please note that none of the following citations are from Neal Barnard or PCRM.

http://www.napa.ufl.edu/99news/autism.htm

http://www.autisme.net/alerg-milk.html

http://www.healthfree.com/paa0013.htm

As for the AMA's "denoucement," it is a denouncment against PCRM's disagreement over the merits of animals in scientific experiements. No criticism of the actual studies that they sponsor could be find by this investigator:

Our AMA registers strong objections to the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine for implying that physicians who support the use of animals in biomedical research are irresponsible, for misrepresenting the critical role animals play in research and teaching, and for obscuring the overwhelming support for such research which exists among practicing physicians in the United States. (Res. 109, A-90; Reaffirmed: Sunset Report, I-00)
Next, some National Institutes of Health (NIH) information on beta-casomorphin-7, "an internal sequence of human beta-casein that possesses opioid-like activity":

beta-casomorphin-7

(and believe you me, NIH is no friend of animals. they give over $185 million to my university alone for animal tests each year)

And finally, some findings from Dr. Corran McLachlan, also not Neal Barnard, and also not of PCRM:

"When beta casein A1 is digested, the amino acid chain is cut right before histidine at postition 67, releasing a fragment of seven amino acids called beta casomorphin 7 (BCM-7). According to McLachlan, BCM-7 in A1 beta casein has been shown to influence platelet aggregation and LDL oxidation, both factors in heart disease. Rats injected with BCM-7 have exhibited symptoms characteristic of schizophenia. BCM-7 has definitive opiate-like properties."

So yeah, PCRM has been criticized by the AMA because they oppose animal testing. However, their studies appear to be sound, if free of animal exploitation. Please find rebuttal to the existence of beta-casomorphin-7, or studies showing that it behaves differently from other molecules in the morphine family.

Thanks,

Schmeeb'
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syntax View Post

Hmm - I find that difficult to accept. Morphine and casein are rather different, and just being similar to morphine is meaningless when talking about any of it's properties. Can you cite something at me on that - the only thing I can find on the PCRM site carefully avoids giving any references at all, which makes me rather suspicious about such claims.
Again, I could be all wrong. But one thing I've experienced - recent vegans crave cheese, and long-time vegans don't. I don't know that my previous citations will be satisfactory for you, but this has been my experience, and the articles seem to make sense.
 
#20 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Schmeebis View Post

I don't know that my previous citations will be satisfactory for you, but this has been my experience, and the articles seem to make sense.
Looks a good start point, thanks. I'll do some reading, and then I'll bring it up again in a new thread in a couple of days, cos this is some serious topic drift otherwise ...
 
#21 ·
I know none of you even probably check these forums any more, however I stumbled across this thread using google and decided to offer some information that has only recently been released by Harvard in September 2011;

This first discusses the new healthy eating plate, which says to limit dairy! I like the way it says healthy protein as well rather than just meat and fish!
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...-eating-plate/

This is another link from Harvard referring to the number of risks that are related to dairy:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...ilk/index.html

Their approach is interesting, it is not as extreme as the PCRM for instance however, having read lots of research I can say that the advice is slowly leaning towards what is essentially a vegetarian/vegan diet!
 
#23 ·
Closing this thread. It's from 2004 and the Harvard links appear in other threads.
 
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