I would make like Frawline (sp) Maria and Climb every mountain and hide the animals with invisible shields, let them live peaceful lives and when they die, bury them with love. We are speaking hypothetically, right?

 

awww....that's so sweet! And beautiful flowers will grow there, or maybe vegetables to feed us

 

I care more about sentient beings than I care about biological categories, such as a species. A species dying out, when it happens in the wild, affects the ecosystem negatively and thus harms other sentient beings. But a domesticated species that is entirely dependent on us dying out affects only our own human desire to have more diversity. The animals don't care. (And by dying out, I mean dying out from lack of breeding, not from killing.)

 

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Originally Posted by Cedre

With the notion of fake meat made from animal cells

That's not fake meat - it's real.

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becoming a viable possibility in the near future, we might actually be facing these very questions. Feel free to add your questions, and of course I can't wait to hear your answers!

No, we will never be facing the question of what to do with a glut of domesticated farm animals that no one will eat. Any transition will occur over a period of time. If laboratory grown meat becomes popular then it will still have to increase production and become affordable and as this occurs the decrease in demand for farm raised meat would lead to a decrease in value which would lead to a decreased supply. Simply put (fewer and fewer) farmers would breed fewer and fewer farmed animals until the problem solves itself. Raising animals for food costs money and is work intensive. Farmers won't do it for a loss. Nor does the transition time need to be long. Most beef cattle are slaughtered at around 18 months, the rest sooner. So farmers can adapt to changes in the market pretty quickly.

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What if the entire world population goes vegan. What happens to all the domesticated and farm animals? They could clearly not keep ALL of the farm animals...will you let them kill most of them and keep a portion of them?

I highly doubt that I will be "letting" farmers do anything. I don't see how it would be any of my business.

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What would you do to the said portion?

Why is it up to me? If it was they would have never been born in the first place.

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Keep them in a zoo? release them in the wild? Well, then they'd die - because they are too domesticated! Keep them in a petting zoo? They can't reproduce themselves, and rely on us to reproduce them.

Many domesticated farm animals are perfectly capable of reproducing themselves: cows and sheep for instance.

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..and for how long shall we do that?

I would hope not longl.

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Will we allow the species to die out? If so, why?

Many domesticated breeds of farm animals have already died out. Is that a crisis? No.

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We are trying so hard to save so many other species, why would we let these ones die out?

What Sevenseas said.

 

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Originally Posted by Vegmedic

...Why is it up to me? If it was they would have never been born in the first place...

Vegmedic, I am not really asking YOU specifically...It is after all a 'what if' question...and like I said in essence 'what if' questions for the most part are stupid and childish. I probably needed to worded better...but what I meant was what would be your ideal solution. What do you think the best outcome would be.

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..Many domesticated farm animals are perfectly capable of reproducing themselves: cows and sheep for instance...

Many are...but many are not. Again, I probably needed to word it better. Though I thought cows were inseminated by humans. Though that doesn't necessarily mean they can't reproduce without humans' help. My point was that humans have had such an impact in their evolution that we have even crippled some species means of reproduction.

Sevenseas, you have a really good point. What do you think about domesticated pet animals?

 

Wait - is your husband one of those meat/dairy/eggs eaters who tries to make some argument that he's actually doing animals a favor by having them live and die in tortuous conditions, because if it weren't for the meat/dairy/eggs eaters they would never have existed to experience that hell? Does he think it's a favor for the 10 billion land animals killed for food every year in the U.S. to have been born on factory farms?

 

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Originally Posted by Cedre

Vegmedic, I am not really asking YOU specifically...It is after all a 'what if' question...and like I said in essence 'what if' questions for the most part are stupid and childish. I probably needed to worded better...but what I meant was what would be your ideal solution. What do you think the best outcome would be.

Unless we are talking about everyone waking up one day as a vegan then I don't see how this would ever be a problem. If such a thing were to occur then I suspect most of these animals would be put down (the solution I would support). We would have enough problems to deal with such as who exactly is going to grow the sudden large increase in demand for fruits and vegetables. I don't see people wanting the additional problem now of how to feed and house several billion farm animals that farmers no longer want. If people want to keep some as pets, or in zoos, or where ever they can. If people want to breed future generations of them they can. I won't claim to understand such a desire, however, I also have no desire to have a pet either.

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Many are...but many are not. Again, I probably needed to word it better. Though I thought cows were inseminated by humans. Though that doesn't necessarily mean they can't reproduce without humans' help. My point was that humans have had such an impact in their evolution that we have even crippled some species means of reproduction.

Most dairy cattle are breed through artificial insemination due to the farmer wanting to use a bull that has most desirable traits in combination with the cow for the future offspring. In the case of beef cattle artificial insemination is less common.

 

oh no, that's not his excuse. His excuse for eating meat is...get this...because he has no problem with it! WTF!!! Oh, it's driving me crazy right now...not to mention that he is very intelligent (though that's debatable) and argues very well (also not fair that he's got an MA in English and taken university courses on how to debate, while English isn't even my first language) so I don't like approaching the subject, because we get into a huge fight, I get emotional and it just doesn't end well....so right now I am swimming in a river in Egypt!

 

I would have no problem with species that we have created for our own personal gain dying out. Species don't have interests, individuals have. And these species are often bred in a manner so that they grow abnormally fast, produce abnormal amounts of eggs/milk and their bodies are bred to be horribly unhealthy so that they can suit our needs better. Turkeys for instance are bred to be som big that they almost always develop huge pain problems in their feet. These are not species that fulfill a role in nature, unlike the wild species that are worth trying to preserve. The day the breeding of these poor animals stops is a happy day in my book.

In addition, these animals do not just happen to come into excistence, we produce them. We would not struggle to come up with ideas with what to do with these animals, because we would gradually stop producing them.

And, if we really wanted to preserve these mutilated species, we could do so without killing and eating them. It is the stupidest argument ever that you are actually helping the animals by "protecting" the species by eating them.

 

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Originally Posted by Cedre

oh no, that's not his excuse. His excuse for eating meat is...get this...because he has no problem with it! WTF!!! Oh, it's driving me crazy right now...not to mention that he is very intelligent (though that's debatable) and argues very well (also not fair that he's got an MA in English and taken university courses on how to debate, while English isn't even my first language) so I don't like approaching the subject, because we get into a huge fight, I get emotional and it just doesn't end well....so right now I am swimming in a river in Egypt!

Before I answer your question: wow, you're fisrt language isn't English!!! You're English is sooo good.

 

Ignorant question: how dependent on us are farm animals really for our survival? Do you not think if we released the farm animals into areas where they could find food, they would survive? I think it is better for animals to die naturally in the wild then to be killed humanely by humans, but that is just my opinion.. I think letting these animals die out naturally (thus not being killed) is the most humane thing to do as many of these animals (like chickens, pigs and turkeys) have been genetically manipulated by humans so that they cannot really live comfortably beyond adolesence and cannot reproduce. The animals that could do this would continue to reproduce themselves and then once again become wild animals (which is the way animals should be).

 

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Originally Posted by Cedre

What do you think about domesticated pet animals?

The same as the domesticated farm animals.

 

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Originally Posted by Dutchvegan

Ignorant question: how dependent on us are farm animals really for our survival? Do you not think if we released the farm animals into areas where they could find food, they would survive? I think it is better for animals to die naturally in the wild then to be killed humanely by humans, but that is just my opinion.. I think letting these animals die out naturally (thus not being killed) is the most humane thing to do as many of these animals (like chickens, pigs and turkeys) have been genetically manipulated by humans so that they cannot really live comfortably beyond adolesence and cannot reproduce. The animals that could do this would continue to reproduce themselves and then once again become wild animals (which is the way animals should be).

I don't think that it would be better to let a large number of domesticated farm animals out into the wild to fend for themselves (which they would suck at). It would temporarily shift the predator/prey balance which would then reverberate for several generations.

 

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Originally Posted by Sevenseas

The same as the domesticated farm animals.

Agreed - the whole pet industry is horrific. But do you think it is inherently wrong for man to get involved with an animal.. For example, if you feed ducks in the winter when there is less food? Or if wild animals livee near you and you slowly develop a bond with them?

 

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Originally Posted by Vegmedic

I don't think that it would be better to let a large number of domesticated farm animals out into the wild to fend for themselves (which they would suck at). It would temporarily shift the predator/prey balance which would then reverberate for several generations.

Yes I guess you are right.

 

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Originally Posted by Dutchvegan

But do you think it is inherently wrong for man to get involved with an animal.. For example, if you feed ducks in the winter when there is less food? Or if wild animals livee near you and you slowly develop a bond with them?

No, I don't think that's wrong. I'm just opposed to the idea of producing them to meet a demand, as if they were some objects.

 

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Originally Posted by Sevenseas

No, I don't think that's wrong. I'm just opposed to the idea of producing them to meet a demand, as if they were some objects.

Absolutely.

 

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Originally Posted by Dutchvegan

Ignorant question: how dependent on us are farm animals really for our survival? Do you not think if we released the farm animals into areas where they could find food, they would survive?

In the U.S. alone there are 10 BILLION land animals being factory farmed at this moment. It's also called "confinement farming" because they're tightly packed. Where are these areas where they could be free-roaming? Who would provide vet care (which they've never gotten), and water, etc.? Just set them out - billions of them barely able to stand or walk - to die? They've also had the ends of their beaks chopped off, and turkeys have had the ends of their toes chopped off, so they could hardly even defend themselves regardless.

Poultry the majority of farmed animals, are bred for pain under the best circumstances...

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Today's "broiler" (meat) chickens have been genetically altered to grow twice as fast and twice as large as their ancestors. Pushed beyond their biological limits, hundreds of millions of chickens die every year before reaching slaughter weight at 6 weeks of age. An industry journal explains that "broilers [chickens] now grow so rapidly that the heart and lungs are not developed well enough to support the remainder of the body, resulting in congestive heart failure and tremendous death losses." Modern broiler chickens also experience crippling leg disorders, as their legs are not capable of supporting their abnormally heavy bodies. Confined in unsanitary, disease-ridden factory farms, the birds also frequently succumb to heat prostration, infectious diseases, and cancer.

Like meat-type chickens, commercial turkeys also suffer from serious physical malformations wrought by genetic manipulation. In addition to having been altered to grow quickly and unnaturally large, commercial turkeys have been genetically manipulated to have extremely large breasts, in order to meet consumer demand for breast meat. As a result, turkeys cannot mount and reproduce naturally, so their sole means of reproduction is artificial insemination. And similar to broiler chickens, factory-farmed turkeys are prone to heart disease and leg injuries as a consequence of their grossly-overweight bodies. An industry journal laments that:

Turkeys have been bred to grow faster and heavier but their skeletons haven't kept pace, which causes 'cowboy legs'. Commonly, the turkeys have problems standing and fall and are trampled on or seek refuge under feeders, leading to bruises and downgradings as well as culled or killed birds.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/...rming/poultry/

Putting down the vast majority of them would be true euthanasia.

 

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Originally Posted by Irizary

In the U.S. alone there are 10 BILLION land animals being factory farmed at this moment. It's also called "confinement farming" because they're tightly packed. Where are these areas where they could be free-roaming? Who would provide vet care (which they've never gotten), and water, etc.? Just set them out - billions of them barely able to stand or walk - to die? They've also had the ends of their beaks chopped off, and turkeys have had the ends of their toes chopped off, so they could hardly even defend themselves regardless.

Poultry the majority of farmed animals, are bred for pain under the best circumstances...

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/...rming/poultry/

Putting down the vast majority of them would be true euthanasia.

Yes, I guess I wasn't thinking clearly - sorry guys. I don't know what the answer would be. However, as the whole world would be vegan, I hope we would find the most humane one.

 

I wish we could stop the breeding of animals. That wouldn't solve the problems with dogs or cats. My biggest dilemma going vegan is that I rescue cats. I trapped three kittens and mother this winter, and found the mother was again pregnant. She just had 6 more. If that invitro lab meat would only be grown as pet food, I'd be so happy. I'm more convinced by the results of cats being obligate carnivours than the vegan diet results. I'm not at all equiped to try it myself, not financially, or emotionally.

What should a vegan do when they come across cats, obviously abandoned to get dieseases, parasites, abuse, and overbreed while suffering a slow death?

 

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Originally Posted by Irizary

In the U.S. alone there are 10 BILLION land animals being factory farmed at this moment....billions of them barely able to stand or walk...They've also had the ends of their beaks chopped off, and turkeys have had the ends of their toes chopped off, so they could hardly even defend themselves regardless...

Putting down the vast majority of them would be true euthanasia.

This is exactly why I thought this would be a bit controversial, because although I agree with your soultion 100%, it still makes me sick!

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Originally Posted by silva

I wish we could stop the breeding of animals. That wouldn't solve the problems with dogs or cats. My biggest dilemma going vegan is that I rescue cats. I trapped three kittens and mother this winter, and found the mother was again pregnant. She just had 6 more. If that invitro lab meat would only be grown as pet food, I'd be so happy. I'm more convinced by the results of cats being obligate carnivours than the vegan diet results. I'm not at all equiped to try it myself, not financially, or emotionally.

What should a vegan do when they come across cats, obviously abandoned to get dieseases, parasites, abuse, and overbreed while suffering a slow death?

That could be a great solution for cat food! I know lab meat is not animal free, but it's still the lesser of two evils.

Also you brought up a good point about domesticated pets. In countries where cats and dogs aren't being bred for pets, they still do exist and live on the streets. I wish that humans didn't have a hand in the breeding of cats and dogs, but then that would also lead to their overpopulation! But also, look at what it's done to the gene pool of pure bred dogs! What I do wish tho is that more people treated their pets how the French treat their dogs (tho I am probably setting myself up for someone coming and telling me how wrong I am about that observation

)

 

My solution. Well we do have a massively large amount of the population from scientists to slaughter house workers whose job it is to raise and kill these animals for food. So, we give them new jobs. Their first job is to destroy those wonderful slaughters and plant trees in their places. (We need more trees.) Their next job is to spay/neuter any animals whose offspring would not be able to lead a normal/helathy life. They also have to give proper medical care to the animals. Next we divide them into groups: cows, pigs, chickens, etc. Each group gets to assume the identity of their chosen animal. They then get the task of teaching these animals how to fend for themselves in the wild, as a mother would their baby. I believe nature will take care of most problems after the animals can understand how to survive. If this is not possible, then they get to take care of their animals until they die out from old age.

The fact is humans messed up this whole situation, it is their responsibility to fix it and try to get it back to where animals can live free like before. If we must let certain species or offsets of species die out for each individual's own well-being then that it what we have to do. However, I'm sure there are still pigs, cows, and chickens living in the wild in various palces, so I don't foresee the whole species dying out just the ones that we genetically modified to the point that they cannot survive on their own and lead proper lives