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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi folks,<br>
I'm vegan myself and I know eating dairy is not good for your bones, but I'm not sure why ? My dad is having calcium deficiency and his doctor told him to eat dairy but I convinced him to reduce animal products and he said most ppl told him he's insane with his bone problems.<br>
Could you please share any links to factual research on negative impacts of dairy ?<br>
Please help...
 

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<a href="http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vegdiets/health-concerns-about-dairy-products" target="_blank">http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/veg...dairy-products</a><br><br>
Hope that helps.
 

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It isn't calcium deficiency, which is rarer than Bigfoot. What's happening is that eating animal protein, which is extremely acidic since it's so high in sulfuric amino acids like methionine, is leaching calcium from your Dad's bones. If you eat meat or dairy, the body must buffer that acid load by pulling calcium from the bones. This is the cause of osteoporosis. Here's an awesome Dr. McDougall article all about it: <a href="http://drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/feb/whenfriendsask.htm" target="_blank">When Friends Ask Where Do You Get Your Calcium?</a>
 

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the short answer is that eating animal products acidifies your blood. Your body's natural response to keep it's normal pH in the blood is to take calcium from the bones which is alkaline. So over a long period of time, it adds up to bone loss. It's hard to replace w/ calcium in the diet since the more calcium you eat, the lower % that is absorbed by your GI tract. Also, I thought I read that vegans eat more calcium anyway (more leafy greens etc in the diet) but I could be wrong there. The China Study is a great book and has a chapter that cites some studies linking increased dairy intake to increased osteoporosis and he explains it much better than I do :p
 

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I've been researching the dairy issue myself while debating whether to continue my current diet or go back to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. I'll be interested in reading other people's opinions about this as well so I'm glad that you brought this up. Although The China Study (book) should be applauded for its basic premise, the actual peer-reviewed data from Campbell's study with respect to dairy does at times seem contradictory.<br><br><a href="http://www.ajcn.org/content/58/2/219.short" target="_blank">Dietary calcium and bone density among middle-aged and elderly women in China</a>
 

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Take a vitamin D supplement as this is the vital nutrient you need to assist absorption of calcium from food and generally keeps calcium balance in the body.<br><br>
Also, please take care with advising people not to consume dairy just because we choose to avoid it. No matter our views, it is an excellent source of calcium and the acid-base balance theory you are discussing is not fully proven yet. Nor is the link between dietary protein and bone proven. Here's the link to the review of the latest evidence:<br><br><a href="http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/6/1674.abstract?ijkey=4f767f44bf972362d2f241e92c1a9ad2d98bff95&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha" target="_blank">http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/6/167...e2=tf_ipsecsha</a><br><br>
and the journal editorial summarising the findings etc: <a href="http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/6/1451.full" target="_blank">http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/6/1451.full</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Digger</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3078004"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I've been researching the dairy issue myself while debating whether to continue my current diet or go back to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. I'll be interested in reading other people's opinions about this as well so I'm glad that you brought this up. Although The China Study (book) should be applauded for its basic premise, the actual peer-reviewed data from Campbell's study with respect to dairy does at times seem contradictory.<br><br><a href="http://www.ajcn.org/content/58/2/219.short" target="_blank">Dietary calcium and bone density among middle-aged and elderly women in China</a></div>
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There have been many other studies which indicate that dairy doesn't afford humans protection against osteoporosis. The Nurses Study, (while not specifically targeted at bone loss) is one such. It began in 1976 and continues to track women's health and the things which may effect it. One of the studies which came out of it so far which indicates that dairy intake does not help shield against bone loss is:<br><br><b><span style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><i>Feskanich D, Willett WC, Colditz GA. Calcium, vitamin D, milk consumption and hip fractures: a prospective study among postmenopausal women. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;77(2): 504-11.</i></span></b><br><br>
There are also other significant studies which also seem to support the fact that animal protein causes the body to release calcium thus causing low bone mass:<br><br><span style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><i><b>Sellmeyer DE, Stone KL, Sebastian A, Cummings SR. A high ratio of dietary animal to vegetable protein increases the rate of bone loss and the risk of fracture in postmenopausal women. Study of Osteoporotic Fractures Research Group. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001;73(1):118-122.<br><br></b> D<b>evine A, Dick IM, Islam AF, et al. Protein consumption is an important predictor of lower limb bone mass in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 2005;81(6):1423-1428.<br><br>
Welch AA, Mulligan A, Bingham SA, Khaw KT. Urine pH is an indicator of dietary acid-base load, fruit and vegetables and meat intakes: results from the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-Norfolk population study. Br J Nutr. 2008 Jun;99(6):1335-43.<br><br></b> <b>Massey LK.. Dietary animal and plant protein and human bone health: a whole foods approach. J Nutr 2003 Mar;133(3):862S-865S.</b></i></span><br><br>
If you're at all concerned about your health, I would strongly urge you to not compromise it by the inclusion of animal products.<br><br>
I realize you're not a post-menopausal woman <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"> but since men can also obviously suffer from loss of bone density, I felt these studies would still be fairly relevant.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Dutchabbey</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3078116"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
There have been many other studies which indicate that dairy doesn't afford humans protection against osteoporosis.</div>
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Of course there are... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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thx for the links, now i'm just confused again. don't u hate nutrition sometimes? i like more precise sciences.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ssessinka</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3077774"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Hi folks,<br>
I'm vegan myself and I know eating dairy is not good for your bones, but I'm not sure why ? My dad is having calcium deficiency and his doctor told him to eat dairy but I convinced him to reduce animal products and he said most ppl told him he's insane with his bone problems.<br>
Could you please share any links to factual research on negative impacts of dairy ?<br>
Please help...</div>
</div>
<br>
If you know that dairy is not good for your bones, but you don't know why you know, then maybe you don't really know?<br><br>
I honestly don't know what the best way to deal with calcium deficiency is, but wouldn't increased intake of dietary calcium make sense? Milk has calcium, so it may actually be good healthwise and I don't think it's acid-producing to nearly to the extent that cheese or meat are. That said, you can get calcium fortified products without having to have dairy, so I'm not saying he should eat it, just that it may not necessarily be bad for him. Why not propose a non-dairy alternative for the calcium intake rather than emphasizing dairy being bad, since the science on that seems pretty fuzzy?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3078252"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If you know that dairy is not good for your bones, but you don't know why you know, then maybe you don't really know?<br><br>
I honestly don't know what the best way to deal with calcium deficiency is, but wouldn't increased intake of dietary calcium make sense? Milk has calcium, so it may actually be good healthwise and I don't think it's acid-producing to nearly to the extent that cheese or meat are. That said, you can get calcium fortified products without having to have dairy, so I'm not saying he should eat it, just that it may not necessarily be bad for him. Why not propose a non-dairy alternative for the calcium intake rather than emphasizing dairy being bad, since the science on that seems pretty fuzzy?</div>
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<br><b>Of course</b> that increasing dietary calcium makes sense - that's what I recommended to my dad. And I was considering all dairy not just milk (dad used to eat loads of cheese) so the acid-producing nature of it worries me.<br><br>
Apart from that I've found interesting video stating that all that hunt to get lot of calcium because it's good for you is an urban legend:<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prSMCxJBubQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prSMCxJBubQ</a><br><br>
opinions ?
 

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This really is an important question, since so many people develop osteoporosis and other bone problems. The mineral balance in the body is so delicate and interdependent that other minerals and their levels have to be looked at.<br><br>
Magnesium and calcium affect one another's levels, and phosphorous is often too high when lowered calcium levels are present. This short chart is a good overview of pertinent minerals and links to sources of each. <a href="http://www.veganpeace.com/nutrient_information/nutrient_info/minerals_info.htm" target="_blank">http://www.veganpeace.com/nutrient_i...erals_info.htm</a><br><br>
I hope your dad's mineral balance improves its balance! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
ETA Soda pop contains phosphoric acid; some studies link it with bone loss. Avoiding it and dairy seems prudent to help even things out.
 

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Some tentative calculations on sulphur-containing amino acids (methionine and cystine (M+C)) in dairy vs soya:<br><br>
Weight percentage of M+C in 100g dry non-fat milk: ( 907 mg+ 334 mg)/ 36200 mg = 3.43%<br>
Weight percentage of M+C in 100g defatted soy flour: (634 mg+757 mg)/ 47000= 2.96%<br>
(Source: Tables at nutritiondata.self.com: <a href="http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/83/2" target="_blank">[1]</a> and <a href="http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4384/2" target="_blank">[2]</a>)<br><br>
So actually yes, compared to soya, it seems dairy has more sulphur-containing amino acids.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Indian Summer</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3078418"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Some tentative calculations on sulphur-containing amino acids (methionine and cystine (M+C)) in dairy vs soya:<br><br>
Weight percentage of M+C in 100g dry non-fat milk: ( 907 mg+ 334 mg)/ 36200 mg = 3.43%<br>
Weight percentage of M+C in 100g defatted soy flour: (634 mg+757 mg)/ 47000= 2.96%<br>
(Source: Tables at nutritiondata.self.com: <a href="http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/83/2" target="_blank">[1]</a> and <a href="http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/legumes-and-legume-products/4384/2" target="_blank">[2]</a>)<br><br>
So actually yes, compared to soya, it seems dairy has more sulphur-containing amino acids.</div>
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Oh, great, that would be my next question - what is the difference between animal milks and soymilk on bones, when the former is replaced by the latter. From the post above it seems to me that the soy products are not good for my dad either - the level of sulphur-containing amino acids is lower in soy-products, but not significantly lower...
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ssessinka</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3078463"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
From the post above it seems to me that the soy products are not good for my dad either - the level of sulphur-containing amino acids is lower in soy-products, but not significantly lower...</div>
</div>
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No, it depends how much sulphur-containing amino acids are consumed in total. And we do need some - methionine is one of the essential amino acids. This <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acids" target="_blank">Wikipedia article</a> says the WHO recommends we should consume no less than 10.4 mg + 4.1 mg (15 mg total) of methionine and cystein respectively per kg body weight per day. (1050 mg if you weigh 70 kg.)
 

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One reason that the results of bone fracture studies can seem confused is because the real answer to most of the questions asked is 'it depends'. There are simply so many factors that may (or may not) be significant that universally applicable rules of thumb are difficult to come by.<br><br>
For example:<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">wouldn't increased intake of dietary calcium make sense</div>
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It depends. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> Yes, except when it doesn't. Vitamin C intake OK? D? Doing load-bearing exercise daily? Other minerals relatively balanced? All these things can make modify the result of additional calcium intake on bone strength.
 

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Given that dairy is such a recent addition to the human diet I've got no qualms agreeing that it may not be the healthiest food to consume, but then again the same can be said for grains, soy, other legumes, etc... so that particular point is largely moot on this forum. The point that bothers me is that Campbell's China Study research showed better bone mass in the dairy eaters, which put into the overall context of lower meat consumption amongst the Chinese, seems to imply that with regard to osteoporosis, a lacto-vegetarian diet has value.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Digger</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3079291"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Given that dairy is such a recent addition to the human diet I've got no qualms agreeing that it may not be the healthiest food to consume, but then again the same can be said for grains, soy, other legumes, etc... so that particular point is largely moot on this forum. The point that bothers me is that Campbell's China Study research showed better bone mass in the dairy eaters, which put into the overall context of lower meat consumption amongst the Chinese, seems to imply that with regard to osteoporosis, a lacto-vegetarian diet has value.</div>
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I think you're overlooking a host of other studies which show that that just isn't the case, several of which I referenced in my last post. Here is a link to an article in Veg Source which, in turn, provides links to the text of many studies which support findings that dairy consumption does not provide protection against bone loss. <a href="http://bit.ly/fjH9zN" target="_blank">http://bit.ly/fjH9zN</a>
 

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Maybe, but the China Study is held in this forum as being the gold standard for veg*n research and is often cited as the veg*n bible... yet the China Study itself showed that dairy intake correlates positively to reduced risk of osteoporosis. I myself don't know how to reconcile that fact, but I have to admit that it is fun watching all the sheep try to explain it away. Can we all just admit that Campbell's research has it's flaws and built-in bias, or should we simply ignore this part of his research because it is inconvenient? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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Non diet related, but might be helpful for your dad: weight training strengthens bones.<br>
Here's an article about that: <a href="http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Bone/Bone_Health/Exercise/default.asp" target="_blank">http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info...se/default.asp</a><br><br>
Once people understand there's a relationship between diet and health, they tend to overestimate the importance of diet and underestimate the importance of exercise when it comes to overall health.<br><br>
Back to diet, the same government website lists the most calcium-rich foods in a chart here: <a href="http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info/Bone/Bone_Health/Nutrition/" target="_blank">http://www.niams.nih.gov/Health_Info...lth/Nutrition/</a><br>
Dairy is included, but look, fortified oatmeal is at the top. Fortified OJ and soymilk are on the list along with other plant-based options.<br>
That same page also describes the importance of vitamin D and warns to avoid too much protein and sodium.<br><br>
You may also want to read the vegan health website on the issue. <a href="http://veganhealth.org/articles/bones#fuss" target="_blank">http://veganhealth.org/articles/bones#fuss</a><br><br>
Lastly, this video makes it clear that everyone needs to pay more attention to their calcium intakes, not just people who avoid dairy: <a href="http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/omnivore-vs-vegan-nutrient-deficiencies-2/" target="_blank">http://nutritionfacts.org/videos/omn...eficiencies-2/</a>
 
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