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Originally Posted by Thalia View Post

However, I do agree a lot of it is cognitive dissonance. We are showing them the idea it's possible to make a change for the animals and that it is a good thing. In order to keep seeing themselves as a moral person, they have to convince themselves that our argument is wrong, or that our behavior is wrong, or, of course, make the change themselves.
I believe this is largely correct. I came across two general types of people during my conversion. There were those that were willing to understand; that is, they accepted the possibility as a matter of fact, whether or not they agreed. These included those like my GF, who rejected doing it together but says she is proud of me for making the change... all the way to my parents/brother that replied in a similar way (and totally out of character for them. I was very impressed). It's interesting that my friends + family were so supportive... I can't help but think it was a naturally selected group - maybe more similar to me than I thought. Also helps we live in a rather open society.

Then there are those that have previously built a wall around themselves and are simply closed to the idea. The source of the closure is normally self-guilt as a crack to their ego... but can also be a case of identity (fear of appearing feminine, weak, normal) or social pressure.

A good example of the non-guilt factors came from the difference between my GF and her family's reaction. My GF knew what I was doing - I did the reading, the research... her family, however, were not so understanding. They view deviancy from normal as a mortal sin. What's the saying? The nail that sticks out gets hammered down? That's how they view me.

The other side, being omni until just a little while back, with a couple vegetarian friends, is that vegetarians have a hard time balancing their ethical viewpoint (ie: superiority) and delivery styles. Naming yourself vegetarian implies that the rest of the world is doing something wrong, which can trigger the reaction "You aren't so perfect either". In many cases, it comes across that way. I can see it on these boards to various degrees.

So, the answer that I believe is most common situation... People reject that which threatens one of the core elements of who they are - ego, social standing and self-image. When any of those triggers get hit, they will react irrationally and lash out. It just happens that vegetarianism is an existing trigger and a minority group, which result in some rather bad manners (to say the least).
 

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Originally Posted by nookle View Post

hmmmmm...... no speculation allowed because it MAY or may not be potentially incorrect and therefore vaguely offensive to some people who will likely never see this thread. Sounds good!
That or possibly she really isn't in their shoes and can't judge...
 

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Just a fleeting thought... Isn't it strange however that "religious" beliefs are respected and rarely commented upon, while "ethical" beliefs are open to all sorts of criticism... ?! Haven't often seen someone openly commenting upon the flaws of catholicism or buddhism (to name but two) as such...

It does have to do with fear somehow though. We are a minority indeed and might "infect" mainstream thinking ! Imagine that ! Eeeek !!!
 

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Originally Posted by TheFirstBus View Post

That or possibly she really isn't in their shoes and can't judge...
But that's what this thread IS. If you HAD to guess, what would you say?
 

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Originally Posted by nookle View Post

hmmmmm...... no speculation allowed because it MAY or may not be potentially incorrect and therefore vaguely offensive to some people who will likely never see this thread. Sounds good!
And the other way round? meat-eaters don't have the right to wonder whether you wear leather or not because it MAY or may not be potentially incorrect and therefore vaguely offensive to some people like you... otherwise they're just jealous of your wonderful ethics...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nookle View Post

But that's what this thread IS. If you HAD to guess, what would you say?
Depends on if I do wear leather shoes, or drive a car, or whatever.

If the two are true I would say "Yes I wear leather shoes, yes I drive a car", If someone decides to get all bloated with some sense of self satisfaction well then so be it, hopefully they will sleep better because of it.
 

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Originally Posted by missbelgium View Post

Haven't often seen someone openly commenting upon the flaws of catholicism
Well, I have, and I sometimes do if I think something in catholicism is wrong. Commenting flaws doesn't have to be always negative, it can also be constructive comments aiming to make some things better.
 

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Originally Posted by Rahkoon View Post

And the other way round? meat-eaters don't have the right to wonder whether you wear leather or not...
Well, if that were genuinely what it was, that's an entirely different thing. But I don't think that that is what we're talking about here. When people ask me questions, really wanting to know - I love that. But this thread (correct me if I'm wrong) is about people challenging us, basically stating that since we breathe, and therefore may inhale methane, which would be an animal product, then we're hypocritical, and shouldn't bother. THAT is the behavior that I was referring to.
 

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Well it's also my point. I mean, I've never be confronted to meat-eaters trying to prove me wrong. I think they're mostly trying to see "how far we go"... at least those I've met were.
 

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If you believe these people are only engaging in these conversations with you to prove you wrong or make you angry instead of listen to the information you have to offer well then... why have the conversations with them? Unless you like to argue... hmmmm??
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahkoon View Post

Well it's also my point. I mean, I've never be confronted to meat-eaters trying to prove me wrong. I think they're mostly trying to see "how far we go"... at least those I've met were.
I have definitely had many people challenge me. "Look for my flaws". Quite often, they'll ask initially because they're interested, but once we start to discuss it, they get quite defensive, and end up saying these kinds of things. Along with all the classic excuses, like "Man has done this for hundreds of years. It MUST be right!"
 

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Well, it's like in any other debate. Everybody likes to prove they're right. Doesn't mean they're horribly biased people, doesn't mean they're judging the others...
 

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So.... why do YOU think people look for our flaws? Not ask questions, or try to see how far we'll go, but LOOK FOR OUR FLAWS?
 

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Originally Posted by nookle View Post

So.... why do YOU think people look for our flaws? Not ask questions, or try to see how far we'll go, but LOOK FOR OUR FLAWS?
The same reason there are Muslims that look for flaws in Christianity.

The same reason there are Christians that look for flaws in Islam.

The same reason that people who live in the country look for flaws in people who live in the city.

The same reason that people who drink tea look for flaws in drinking coffee.

visa-versa, etc, etc, etc...

Most people beleive that thier lifestyle is THE right way to live. I mean, obviously that's why people live the way they do. You wouldn't intentionaly choose to live a way you knew was wrong, or if you knew there was a better alternative.

That's why people feel the need to pick out other people's flaws. They need to justify the way they live.

Hell, I find myself doing it all the time. Never out loud, as I'm non-confrontational, but I do it. I usually tell myself off for it, but often I just can't help it. I guess humans are just naturally self-righteous.

Seriously, is there anyone here on VB that doesn't pick out other people's flaws? (spoken or otherwise)
 

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That people challenge vegetarians/vegans in the way you're talking about is kind of red herring. They say "Well, do you wear leather?" (or whatever) as if your doing that would make it pointless to be vegetarian. When really, doing something is clearly better than doing nothing, even if you don't do everything. Just think - if every single person stopped eating meat, even if they still wore leather, think how many lives would be saved and how much less suffering there would be. Hell, if every person cut meat out of their diet for just one day a week, a difference would be made to millions of animals, not to mention the environment. You don't have to be perfect to help make a difference.
 

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I think we all know that.

Plus, wearing leather doesn't make it pointless to be veggie... only very, very contradictory. I see leather-wearers as pretty odd when they claim they're veggies. Personally.
 

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Yeah I do it all the time as well. It's just human nature to want to believe your way of doing things is the best way, or is at least an okay way to do it. I know someone who would have won the lottery if he hadn't forgotten to do his usual numbers (that he always did every week for the past 20 years) that ONE week. You should have heard the way he justified the whole thing to himself about why it's better that he didn't win. People just want to believe their life and way of living are okay so they can be happy.
 

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Aouch that must suck.

And that's also what Glycine Max did, and so many others, and all of us I guess^^

OP looked for the meat-eaters' flaws in the first place, so...
 
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