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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My cousin is a hunter. He just loves saying that he is helping by keeping population under control. I always get omnivores saying "What if no one ate meat, the cows and dear and chickens would be overpopulated" I usually fire back with a "Nature takes care of itself and it would regulate out again" But they want details on how.<br><br>
I also get the whole "The animal is already dead anyways, why not eat it?"<br><br>
I argue my points as best as I can, but I would really like some good arguments to throw back.<br><br>
Any ideas guys?
 

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If no one ate meat, the cows and chickens would not overpopulate, they'd be destroyed. A rancher is not going to pay to support livestock that is not generating any income.<br><br>
Deer are imo a different story. Human's have so screwed up the environment by encroaching on wildlife's habitat and by eliminating natural predators that deer could very well overpopulate areas... for a time. The only "natural" way left (because predation is virtually non-existent w/o hunting) is starvation and disease. Right now hunters are filing the predation niche that animals such as wolves used to fill.
 

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Do these "population balance experts" promise not to have any kids ? 'Cause when their kids grow up, they're gonna want a house, probably out in the burbs, which has sprawled into Deer country. Can't leave what the Deer once ate there, if you're gonna have a pretty mowed yard.
 

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Farmed animals:<br>
Today's farmed animals are man-made inventions. They have been bred and overbred so much that they barely resemble their wild cousins. Compare farmed turkeys to wild turkeys - they are not the same. Those creatures are so genetically deformed that they are incapable of reproducing sexually. That's right, farmed turkeys must be artificially inseminated! In fact, many of today's farmed animals are artificially inseminated either because it's easier for the farm workers or because factory farming has created mutants that cannot easily reproduce naturally. Not only are they unlikely to reproduce quickly enough to overcome all the natural threats and difficulties they'd face if they were set free into the wild, they may not be able to reproduce at all. Thus, if they were all set free, the chances that they would present any sort of long-term "over population" problem is absurd. it's completely ridiculous. Farmed animals will never take over the Earth.<br><br>
Even if farmed animals did somehow run rampant and all of a sudden we had a huge problem of cows trampling human-inhabited areas, then there's still a better way of dealing with that issue than by killing them, eating them, and making more of them to kill and eat. We are humans with big huge brains, surely we can get more creative than that! Hey, for example, we could start treating them the way we treat cats and dogs - we could set up sanctuaries and shelters for them and try to spay/neuter as many as possible. Or, here's a thought, we could figure out a way to live in harmony with animals and nature.<br><br>
Hunting:<br>
The way that humans hunt tends to increase overpopulation problems rather than decrease them. Humans tend to hunt in a way that conflicts with rather than mimics nature. For example, when humans hunt deer they tend to go for the strong bucks rather than the sick, injured, or weak. Furthermore, there are more humane ways of dealing with population issues. For example, birth control. There are now ways of giving animals birth control through medicated feed or shooting them with medical darts. Or, we could just let nature run its course and if there's really too many of them then some will starve and die and the population will shrink on its own.<br><br><b>The point is, there are always other options. A puny imagination is no excuse for cruelty.</b>
 

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when a predator (not humans) hunt they kill what they need to survive they dont just kill things to hang on there walls or just to say that they did it. they dont take more than they need. unlike people that hunt they just kill to do it they may eat they may not they may hang it on a wall they may not they might just throw in the trash. there not helping to control populations there helping destroy populations.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Cortneylovesanimals</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3013186"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
My cousin is a hunter. He just loves saying that he is helping by keeping population under control.</div>
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Just a quickie on that one ...<br><br>
If the hunters hadn't shot all the wolves then the deer wouldn't be out of control.
 

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I totally heart every post I have read by ElaineV. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3014969"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Just a quickie on that one ...<br><br>
If the hunters hadn't shot all the wolves then the deer wouldn't be out of control.</div>
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Government shot all the wolves.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>krispex22</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3014941"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
when a predator (not humans) hunt they kill what they need to survive they dont just kill things to hang on there walls or just to say that they did it. <b>they dont take more than they need.</b> unlike people that hunt they just kill to do it they may eat they may not they may hang it on a wall they may not they might just throw in the trash. there not helping to control populations there helping destroy populations.</div>
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Completely untrue. Wolves will kill far more than they need. Not saying that's wrong of them, it's in their nature, but it is patently false that they only kill what they need.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3014917"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Hunting:<br>
The way that humans hunt tends to increase overpopulation problems rather than decrease them. Humans tend to hunt in a way that conflicts with rather than mimics nature. For example, when humans hunt deer they tend to go for the strong bucks rather than the sick, injured, or weak. Furthermore, there are more humane ways of dealing with population issues. For example, birth control. There are now ways of giving animals birth control through medicated feed or shooting them with medical darts. Or, we could just let nature run its course and if there's really too many of them then some will starve and die and the population will shrink on its own.<br><br><b>The point is, there are always other options. A puny imagination is no excuse for cruelty.</b></div>
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Far more doe/fawn tags are sold than buck tags. Hunters are usually limited to one male animal per season and yes a lot of hunters want to get that big buck, when the population needs to come down to sustainable numbers the fish and game departments sell piles of doe/fawn tags. There are just too many animals to make birth control feasible in any realistic sense. Starvation is certainly an option and it will happen when populations get too big. Personally I see human encroachment into wild areas the biggest problem.
 

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Farm animals have pretty well been covered. On the subject of hunting... I also have relatives (a cousin) who hunt and have talked with them a little about this topic. It's an uncomfortable topic for me. My cousin's claim is that without natural predators and without hunters, the deer will become overpopulated and starve. He has posed this question to me, which is why I feel a bit torn: Is it fair/humane to let the animals starve, or to kill in order to control the population? I didn't really have a solid answer for that. Even though I know that starvation can be a part of nature and that eventually nature can regulate itself, I hate the idea of an animal suffering a slow death.<br><br>
I'm all for using feed and medicine as a form of birth control to keep a handle on the animal's population, but the sad fact is that many areas simply couldn't be bothered...especially when these medicines will cost money and selling hunting licences and gear will gain money.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3014917"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><b>A puny imagination is no excuse for cruelty.</b></div>
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I want this as a bumper sticker!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Forster</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3015037"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Government shot all the wolves.</div>
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Oh, it wasn't hunters then?<br><br>
Mebbe the Wolves handed themselves in at County Hall, or something ..
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3015112"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <b>ElaineV</b> <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/showthread.php?p=3014917#post3014917" target="_blank"><img alt="" src="http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><b>A puny imagination is no excuse for cruelty.</b></div>
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I want this as a bumper sticker!</div>
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I'll buy one!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3015180"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Oh, it wasn't hunters then?<br><br>
Mebbe the Wolves handed themselves in at County Hall, or something ..</div>
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The government sponsored a wolf extermination program, they hired people to wipe out the wolves. It may be semantics but IMO people hired to kill animals are not hunters.
 

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Not every Animal shot dies. What an injustice to live the rest of your life with an injury because some greedy ******* thought he *might* keep you from starving someday.<br><br>
Anyway, it's not really about preventing anyone from starving (although from the impression I've gotten from Hunters all my life, any Deer still slim enough to be able to run, is starving).<br><br>
One thing I've seen over and over on Hunting programs on TV is that the hunters get into this frame of mind that the Animals are teasing them, and now it's a contest about who can outsmart the other one. Stealing the life is the goal. "He's mine now" : Actual words from a hunter's mouth on one program I saw.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Oh wow, I love how many replies my thread is getting! I was hoping to get a variety of opinions and you guys are surly giving them.<br><br>
Okay, so I see what you are saying. I agree that the farm animals would potentially die away if people would stop overproduction of them. While this is sad, it is much better than these poor animals suffering for someone to eat them.<br><br>
The hunting topic was the one I was also more stuck on. But after reading all of your replies, here is what I think. Thanks so much for your replies!<br><br>
When a hunter says that without them there would be an over population of deer or other animals they hunt..the only option is to hunt them, or let them die off and starve to death, or give birth control. I like the idea of birth control because it is the most humane way, but I just don't think a lot of parks would do this. I don't know though, I wish they would. So what is worse? Letting them starve or killing them for "sport"? I say that humans are the reason for the environmental upsets. If the government had not hired hunters to kill the wolves, there would be natural predators for the deer, which would keep the population under control. But because of the killing off of the wolves, the deer are overpopulated. If hunters stopped hunting, the natural course of nature would take its toll. Which would result in many deer unfortunately starving to death because of humans encroachment into the natural ways of life. Another option would be to allow hunters to go and kill more than normal amounts of deer to lower the population, but then to make hunting illegal. Then the population would be lower. Because deer will stop mating when there is scarcity of food. However, this option makes me sad because either way, the animals will die. But basically hunters sound foolish when using hunting as a badge of honor saying they are helping with population because hunting is what caused the mishap in population to begin with!<br><br>
A lot of my family hunts. My dad used to, pretty much every male on both sides of my family hunts, and even some female cousins. I have a country family, so you could only imagine the jokes about vegetarianism I have to face. My cousin and I got into an argument on the fact that I said hunting is not a "sport". In a sport both teams are aware they are playing, both teams have equal means to winning. But in hunting, you wear things to prevent them from smelling you or seeing you. You sit high in a tree and watch them living their lives, and you have a high power weapon. What do they have?<br><br>
While my family follow the hunting rules, I think a lot of hunters break the rules, hunt more than allowed, hunt illegal species, and a lot will injure the animals without even trying to find it and put it out of its misery. A lot hunt for the so called "sport" of who can get the biggest buck. I don't see how someone who participates in such a cowardly "sport" can try and say they are helping the animals with population.
 

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I don't get it. Population controlling or any other reasons aside, how could you want to hunt down and kill such a beautiful defenceless animal? I guess I must be wired differently to people that can hunt.
 

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Bright Bird:<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Is it fair/humane to let the animals starve, or to kill in order to control the population?</div>
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It's fairer to not kill them because not all the weakest and sick will die. Nature is unpredictable and there's always change that gives hope to life. If they recovered from the harsh condition they're in, they helped to produce stronger new generations to cope with the situation they experienced.<br><br>
If hunters remove them outright, they're denied the evolutionary process. This is wrong.<br><br>
Some argued that deers will produce fewer fawns when food is scarce. I believe it does because many animals have such ability to self-regulate. Wilderbeest could delay birth for weeks to protect their calf from coming to this world at the wrong time and place. And they could synchronise birthing. This helped to increase their survival chance.<br><br>
Courtney<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">"The animal is already dead anyways, why not eat it?"</div>
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You can say how it died bothers you.<br><br>
p/s: A very good post by ElaineV. Humans should feel guilty for turning some of these wonderful animals into such a sorry state!
 
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