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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Friend of mine. He asked why I went vegetarian, and I responded health and ethical reasons. Then he brought up the plant argument. I said plants don't feel pain, he links to articles stating how plants react to stimuli and such and I link him an article that details how pain is processed via things that plants lack.<br><br>
It basically winds down to him saying that because they react to stimuli they can feel pain.
 

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they don't have nervous systems and are not sentinent (Key word). Yes plants can respond to stimuli, such as sunflowers following the sun and turning their heads, and the venous fly traps will close when the tiny hairs are stimulated inside the plant by an insect. And the plant that the leaves fold up when touched....forgot what that was called, but my mom had one when I was growing up. All of those are environmental stimuli, but the plant is not feeling pain, can't- no nerves!<br><br>
He's busting your chops and trying to make you justify to him why you're veg....pick your battles. You don't have to answer every question posed to you- you need to evaluate the intent behind the question or the prodding. If someone is genuinely curious, they won't attack you with stupid stuff.
 

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This isn't an original one, but hand him a knife and a carrot and ask him to chop up the latter. Then hand him a knife and a puppy and tell him to do the same.<br><br>
Obviously, he won't (unless he's a sick psycho) and it's because his argument is bogus. Plants and animals are just NOT the same, even if they're both technically alive. His argument is just silly. Picking a pepper is NOT like killing a cow. End of story. Not worth your time debating. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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A car reacts to the stimulus of whether someone has their seatbelt on, doesn't mean the car is sentient.
 

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I have had the plant argument said to me "plant killer" I was called. It is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah, that's what I was trying to tell him. That because they react to stimulus that doesn't mean they have the ability to perceive pain, and he's saying that them reacting is because they feel pain. Which is where he's making me be quite flabbergasted. xP
 

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Even if they do, why is that a good reason to eat animals?
 

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I'd be a total Smart Alec and say, "I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants and don't care about their pain." If I happened to have food with me, I'd start growling and eating it like a hungry wolf.
 

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Your friend also knows he's responsible for more plant deaths than you are? Food animals eat far more plant foods than we do while they're on their way to the dinner table. (This is also why meat is an inefficient food source, it contributes to world hunger and also uses quite a lot of our water resources.) So whether they feel pain or not, you're still responsible for fewer plant deaths.<br><br>
Honestly though, it seems your friend is trying to cause an argument or he is being ignorant of the facts. Good luck, if he doesn't quit, it may be time to agree to disagree.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874909"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Even if they do, why is that a good reason to eat animals?</div>
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He wasn't using it as a defense, he was just curious. He actually supports it.<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Rhys</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874939"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Your friend also knows he's responsible for more plant deaths than you are? Food animals eat far more plant foods than we do while they're on their way to the dinner table. (This is also why meat is an inefficient food source, it contributes to world hunger and also uses quite a lot of our water resources.) So whether they feel pain or not, you're still responsible for fewer plant deaths.<br><br>
Honestly though, it seems your friend is trying to cause an argument or he is being ignorant of the facts. Good luck, if he doesn't quit, it may be time to agree to disagree.</div>
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True. That is really interesting, and I love it when people bring up hungry people as a defense. I pointed that nice little fact out once, and the guy started blabbing about quality of life or something, like eating less meat will lead people to have a horrible life.
 

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It's not in a plants interest to feel pain. Animals feel fear and pain because it's nature's way of saying 'don't eat that hedgehog' or 'run away from that jaggy toothed, sharp clawed thing'. If plants had sentience and pain all they could do with it is sit there silently screaming while their 'predators' eat them alive. From a survival point of view there's no point. I quite liked this argument when I heard it, alongside the scientific facts about plant sentience, because it made me think.
 

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Grant the possibility that plants may feel pain. Then ask him what he's doing about it.<br>
Most likely, he doesn't actually care. Because if he did care, he'd be a fruitarian.
 

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I used to worry as a child that germs felt pain. And my dad removed a dangerous tree from the garden once and the sap looked like blood, and I asked my mum if trees could feel pain and she said "noone really knows..." whilst I sat there horrified watching my dad chop the bleeding tree down!<br><br>
That was what I thought as a small child -- but as an adult I know that plants respond to certain stimuli but not others, therefore becomes classed as a non-sentient being.<br><br>
It is not really feasible that this person had such an argument. Did they even believe what they were saying? Or was it just an argument for the sake of it?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ashurii</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874951"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
True. That is really interesting, and I love it when people bring up hungry people as a defense. I pointed that nice little fact out once, and the guy started blabbing about quality of life or something, like eating less meat will lead people to have a horrible life.</div>
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Yeah, that guy doesn't know what he's talking about but I think I know why. When you take meat off a meat eater's plate, many have no idea what to replace it with and they make assumptions like veg*ns only eat iceberg lettuce salads every day. They also feel eating meat is a necessity or right. Personally, my diet is much more varied as a veg*n and my life is richer for it. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"> When I look at a restaurant menu and see that meat is in EVERY dish, I think about how unhealthy/boring it must be.<br><br>
Also, I think the hungry people that would be fed if the world were veg*n would have a much better time <b>not starving</b> and wouldn't really mind the lack of meat.<br><br>
That's not even mentioning the lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, cancer or the decreased environmental damage in a veg*n world or giving animals the compassionate treatment they deserve. It's a good choice all around and foregoing all of that in favor of the taste of meat seems selfish to me.
 

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Even if we pretended this argument was valid for a fraction of a second, we still have to eat <i>something</i>. I fail to see how this would refute vegetarianism even in a hypothetical situation.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2874884"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
A car reacts to the stimulus of whether someone has their seatbelt on, doesn't mean the car is sentient.</div>
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Dont forget that if you have OnStar, it also calls for help when it gets hurt.<br><br>
Not sure if it calls for it, or for you,, but it still calls.
 

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"You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit. If he eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car"<br>
Harvey Diamond
 

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I usually respond to the silly plant argument by calling the person using it on not even getting the logic correct (the argument supports fruititarianism as has been pointed out. And as has also pointed out, a person who eats meat is indirectly causing more plants to be consumed than even the staunchest vegan eating absolutely nothing but plants.) Never had someone 'fess up to being a secret fruititarian yet.
 

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I have heard somewhere that plants may be able to feel pain. But you gotta eat right? So by not feeding billions of animals plants and then eating the animals we still kill less creatures by eating the plants directly.<br>
Can people never come up with one valid argument against vegetarianism? I'm so tired of hearing the same old silly ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Oh boy. The same guy just made a topic on the message board we both go to, blasting ethical reasons.<br><br><i>'If everyone was vegetarian, there would be no hunger in the world.'<br><br>
Bull-****ing-****.<br><br>
This, right next to ethical reasons, is the biggest bull**** reason to be a vegetarian. I'll understand if you say, "Oh, I just think I'm having too much meat, and I like veggies better. Plus, it's healthier [which is completely debatable, but let's not get into that]", but if you tell me that it's because you want to end world hunger, then you have no ****ing idea how the real world works.<br><br>
The real reason why there's people starving in Africa and Asia is not because there aren't enough resources for everyone, but rather because people are greedy ****s and the distribution of the goods is very poorly executed. There's enough food and drink for everyone in the world, but people want to always have the upper hand, and the general mentality is this kind of business is if you have more than the rest, then you're better than them.<br><br>
Morally, this is wrong; but realistically speaking, it's true. That's why the Developed Countries are better off than the rest - because they have the upper hand regarding resources and they were the ones who colonized and 'conquered' the rest of the world.<br><br>
/rant<br><br>
TL;DR: If you're a vegetarian and one of your reasons to be so is because you think you're saving the world, you're delusional.</i>
 
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