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Discussion Starter #1
Pope's comments on Islam raise a storm<br><br><br><br><br><br>
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”<br><br>
- Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus<br><br><br><br>
The reference to this quotation by the Pope Benedict XVI in his lecture delivered on September 12 at the University of Regensburg has raised an unwanted and untimely controversy in the Muslim world.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
I searched up some of this text in the Koran. So how does this compare to what the Pope quoted and what the Bible teaches.<br><br><br><br>
002.191<br><br>
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.<br><br>
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.<br><br>
SHAKIR: And <b>Kill</b> them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.<br><br><br><br>
004.089<br><br>
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-<br><br>
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and <b>Kill</b> them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,<br><br>
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and <b>Kill</b> them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.<br><br><br><br>
004.091<br><br>
YUSUFALI: Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.<br><br>
PICKTHAL: Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and <b>Kill</b> them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.<br><br>
SHAKIR: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and <b>Kill</b> them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.<br><br><br><br>
004.157<br><br>
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We <b>Kill</b>ed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they <b>Kill</b>ed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they <b>Kill</b>ed him not:-<br><br>
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.<br><br>
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have <b>Kill</b>ed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not <b>Kill</b> him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they <b>Kill</b>ed him not for sure.<br><br><br><br>
005.033<br><br>
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;<br><br>
PICKTHAL: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be <b>Kill</b>ed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;<br><br>
SHAKIR: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,<br><br><br><br>
008.030<br><br>
YUSUFALI: Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.<br><br>
PICKTHAL: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to <b>Kill</b> thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters.<br><br>
SHAKIR: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners.<br><br><br><br>
017.033<br><br>
YUSUFALI: Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law).<br><br>
PICKTHAL: And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped.<br><br>
SHAKIR: And do not <b>Kill</b> any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.<br><br><br><br>
027.021<br><br>
YUSUFALI: "I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)."<br><br>
PICKTHAL: I verily will punish him with hard punishment or I verily will slay him, or he verily shall bring me a plain excuse.<br><br>
SHAKIR: I will most certainly punish him with a severe punishment, or <b>Kill</b> him, or he shall bring to me a clear plea.
 

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The title of this thread sounds like a comment someone posts after the Pope's post on a msg board.<br><br><br><br>
A context would have been nice.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
The title of this thread sounds like a comment someone posts after the Pope's post on a msg board. A context would have been nice.</div>
</div>
<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sleeping.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":sleep:">
 

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I'm tired too, it's way past midnight here.
 

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this is going to sound stupid, but I have been computerless for the past week and i don't watch TV. what exactly did the Pope say? I can't find the exact statements online.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>purrpelle</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
this is going to sound stupid, but I have been computerless for the past week and i don't watch TV. what exactly did the Pope say? I can't find the exact statements online.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br><br><br>
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.<br><br>
- Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus<br><br><br><br>
The reference to this quotation by the Pope Benedict XVI in his lecture delivered on September 12 at the University of Regensburg has raised an unwanted and untimely controversy in the Muslim world
 

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hmm. what did he say about the quote? does anyone know?<br><br><br><br>
anyhoo, I don't think the Christians have any right to mentions muslims and swords and whatnot, what with the Crusades and all.
 

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I don't know what this means:<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Vegan Joe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
So how does this compare to what the Pope quoted and what the Bible teaches.</div>
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What parts of the Bible should your quotes be compared to? If you're saying that the Bible doesn't tell anyone to kill, then that's incorrect, as there are parts about e.g. stoning gays to death.
 

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I think it was extremely irresponsible for the Pope to say that, he's just inciting more hatred and violence.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
as there are parts about e.g. stoning gays to death.</div>
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Can we see the passage to substantiate you clam.<br><br><br><br>
And wouldn't this also be the case with Islam?
 

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hey, don't call Sevenseas a clam! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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I'm looking for a source right now to back up what I'm about to say...<br><br>
apparently the statement wasn't reflective of what the Pope/the Church believes; the quote was used in an appropriate context.<br><br><br><br>
What really gets me, is that as a result of what was said, we have people running around in the streets with guns and killing nuns, for crying out loud. That's crazy.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Vegan Joe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Can we see the passage to substantiate you clam.</div>
</div>
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I ripped the stoning part out of my ass, but otherwise it's Leviticus 20:13.<br><br><br><br>
King James version: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."<br><br><br><br>
And yeah, I'm no clam. A seahorse, maybe, or a lobster. But a clam? C'mon now.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>veggiejanie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
What really gets me, is that as a result of what was said, we have people running around in the streets with guns and killing nuns, for crying out loud. That's crazy.</div>
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that's not much different than the nuts who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>purrpelle</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
that's not much different than the nuts who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God.</div>
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<br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:"><br><br><br><br>
There's a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI_Islam_controversy" target="_blank">big article</a> in Wiki about this thing. Not my favorite source of choice, but it works. At least there's direct quotes.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
On 16 September 2006, Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone, the Secretary of State of the Holy See, released a declaration explaining that the "position of the Pope concerning Islam is unequivocally that expressed by the conciliar document Nostra Aetate" and that "the Pope's option in favour of inter-religious and inter-cultural dialogue is equally unequivocal."<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">As for the opinion of the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus which he quoted during his Regensburg talk, the Holy Father did not mean, nor does he mean, to make that opinion his own in any way. He simply used it as a means to undertake in an academic context, and as is evident from a complete and attentive reading of the text certain reflections on the theme of the relationship between religion and violence in general, and to conclude with a clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence, from whatever side it may come. [The Pope] sincerely regrets that certain passages of his address could have sounded offensive to the sensitivities of the Muslim faithful and should have been interpreted in a manner that in no way corresponds to his intentions.</div>
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<br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">On 17 September, before his regular weekly Sunday Angelus prayer, Pope Benedict XVI stated the following:
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">At this time, I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims. These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought. Yesterday, the Cardinal Secretary of State published a statement in this regard in which he explained the true meaning of my words. I hope that this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect.</div>
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<br>
 

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Discussion Starter #18
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>purrpelle</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
that's not much different than the nuts who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God.</div>
</div>
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I am not condoning these action but, I don't know if that can be compared equally.<br><br>
The problem with abortion is it depends on you definition of life. At what point a human being is a huiman being. So now the problem is that definition of killing. And now that you make that point I wonder if there are any Abortion clinics in Islamic countries and what there view might be on this subject?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>purrpelle</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
that's not much different than the nuts who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God.</div>
</div>
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While I don't agree with bombing abortion clinics, I can see a difference. The clinic bomber is attacking a place, and often person,s they feel is directly ahrming others they wish to protect.<br><br><br><br>
That is quite different than a bunch of jackass Islamic fundies burning a random church on shooting random Christians for something someone else says.<br><br><br><br>
You know what is funny? The fundie Muslims know they are at war with the west. The west is just to ****ified now to admit it.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Vegan Joe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
And now that you make that point I wonder if there are any Abortion clinics in Islamic countries and what there view might be on this subject?</div>
</div>
<br>
I wonder what you are getting at with these comparisons between Christianity and Islam and the West and the East. Is there an underlying point you're trying to express?
 
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