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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>PlaybackGuru</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Thats because Greenpeace are a bunch of sissys....this year (actually this month the Japanese whalers just left port) Sea Shepherd will not only be out their facing a gun boat protecting the whalers, they will be out there alone. Why? Because Greenpeace heard about the Japanese gun boat escort and decided not to get involved!<br><br><br><br>
The world became a better place when they (Greenpeace) voted Captain Paul Watson out!!!</div>
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Then they should get some bigger guns themselves. I would take that as a challenge. Russia sells to just about anyone. They want war, lets have it. F greenpeace, sissies they are. I'm tired of the good guys being painted as weak. I'm not going to say any more, but when whaling becomes a combat experience, less whaling will be done.<br><br><br><br>
BUT lets look at it this way, the whalers have to pay for protection, which means a profit loss, or an increase in the price of their products, which results in less sales, so, in the long run, they lose.
 

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>NZVeggie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
They were stating the opinion of a japanese person who couldnt see the problem with whaling - after all what is the difference between shooting a deer (or bambi as they were referred to) for food/sport (as many westerners do) compared with shooting a whale for food.<br><br><br><br>
Now I know (almost) everyone here would be against both scenarios, but of course many omnis are fine with hunting, but not with whaling. I just thought this person made an interesting point for omnis to think about.<br><br><br><br>
Any further thoughts?</div>
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The Japanese whaling is illegal. Most hunting of wildlife is not.<br><br><br><br>
But in general, omnis are sentimental and inconsistent when it comes to caring about one animal and eating others.
 

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>MrsKey</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Well, in that case the show isn't showcasing them knowing what they're doing. It's making them look like a bunch of half-assed clowns playing sailor with a crew of disrespectful volunteers who wouldn't know port from starboard if someone told them.</div>
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it looked like that to me too. but i think watson makes a point of surrounding himself with young and impressionable novices so that he gets things done his way without any opposition. an older and more experienced crew would start to stick their opinion in where he probably wouldnt want it.<br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I also know that to those people my words are the equivalent of blasphemy in the religion of Animal Rights.</div>
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too bad, theyre just people who cant handle their idols being criticised, but imo, theyre the people who need to hear it the most.<br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
The long run? They've been doing this since 1977 - over 30 years - and it hasn't happened yet. They must have some idea what they're doing.</div>
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they havent managed to stop the whaling in over 30 years with this tactic either. if a boat gets sunk the japanese dont care, its all insured, they just come back again with another one. its a pointless exercise. all it seems to be accomplishing is giving watson and a few other lost souls that are looking for some adventure in their lives, a bit of a thrill at sea.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Or in other words, it really depends on your own political/ethical values. So let's just dump the "because of their cause" and replace it with "because of a cause that is not important to me".</div>
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It is more about whetever it is necessary at the moment or not, it does not have to be how I judge the cause, a person who has ideals that I agree with, but display them in a violent or destructive demeanor is not something that I would accept either.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kali</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
it looked like that to me too. but i think watson makes a point of surrounding himself with young and impressionable novices so that he gets things done his way without any opposition. an older and more experienced crew would start to stick their opinion in where he probably wouldnt want it.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
too bad, theyre just people who cant handle their idols being criticised, but imo, theyre the people who need to hear it the most.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
they havent managed to stop the whaling in over 30 years with this tactic either. if a boat gets sunk the japanese dont care, its all insured, they just come back again with another one. its a pointless exercise. <b>all it seems to be accomplishing is giving watson and a few other lost souls that are looking for some adventure in their lives, a bit of a thrill at sea.</b></div>
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I don't think the Japanese have met their limit of kills, so tell that to the whales that have been saved by Sea Shepherd.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kali</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
it looked like that to me too. but i think watson makes a point of surrounding himself with young and impressionable novices so that he gets things done his way without any opposition. an older and more experienced crew would start to stick their opinion in where he probably wouldnt want it.</div>
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Perhaps. Though it seemed that some of those impressionable novices seemed to have some ideas of their own (including a huge party after the Captain said "no party"). Perhaps it is being a military/cop's brat and the wife of two men in the Navy ... you just don't do things like that at sea. There are too many things that can go wrong when orders aren't followed.<br><br><br><br>
Paul Watson seems to be on the one hand afraid to really take control of his boat - Like when he asked two of his crew if they wanted to do something, told them it was their decision and then tried to wheedle them into making the decision he wanted. Either make it an order or shut up when the choice your crew makes isn't the one you wanted. And on the other hand he seems to have (from the show) a God-complex. When his crew members were returned from the Japanese ship and he refused to go to the main deck to greet them (and thank the Australian Customs officers who returned them) because he "doesn't leave the bridge." That's bull.<br><br><br><br>
But the show does explain how they have been doing this for more than 30 years and no one I know had ever heard of the group until this show. I think the only people who knew about Sea Shepherd were those who were already vested in this issue. In other words Paul Watson only ever reached and preached to the choir before this show. And it isn't showing his organization to its best. Which may or may not be editing.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Envy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It is more about whetever it is necessary at the moment or not,</div>
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You're saying that helping whales is not necessary at the moment? Or are you saying that some other method is at least as effective? Which method and how has it been effective?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">it does not have to be how I judge the cause, a person who has ideals that I agree with, but display them in a violent or destructive demeanor is not something that I would accept either.</div>
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That's what you say, but I think comments about "destructive" tactics largely come down to "they're just animals".
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>MrsKey</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
no one I know had ever heard of the group until this show. I think the only people who knew about Sea Shepherd were those who were already vested in this issue. In other words Paul Watson only ever reached and preached to the choir before this show.</div>
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That's funny because you can say that about just about every other AR group except PETA, and people criticize PETA harshly and unforgivably because of their tactics to get in the news (which is about the only way to get in the news consistently). Ask your friends if they're familiar with the Primate Freedom Project, Compassion Over Killing, and United Poultry Concerns - which are very active groups.<br><br><br><br>
(HSUS has a name basically because people mistakenly link them with the shelter system).<br><br><br><br>
You're also mistaking that their main task was "preaching" - they were focused on going out and doing direct action saving marine animals - which they did.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
You're also mistaking that their main task was "preaching" - they were focused on going out and doing direct action saving marine animals - which they did.</div>
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That's one of the misunderstandings I've noticed in this thread; some people seem to think that Watson & co. are just engaging in a political campaign or something.
 

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kali</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
they havent managed to stop the whaling in over 30 years with this tactic either.</div>
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That's a ridiculous standard. Social change takes time. A few abolitionists didn't stop slavery in anywhere even remotely close 30 years, but they had to start somewhere. To expect Sea Shepherd to singlehandedly shut down the entire whaling industry is unrealistic.<br><br><br><br>
And, in fact, Sea Shepherd has saved whales, which was their mission.<br><br><br><br>
You haven't managed to get the world to stop hurting animals in however long you've been trying (if you have been trying, I don't know), so I guess your tactic isn't working. And that applies to everyone who's trying to stop animal abuse then, because animal abuse is still happening. As though social change of that magnitude happens immediately or within a very short time span.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That's a ridiculous standard. Social change takes time. A few abolitionists didn't stop slavery in anywhere even remotely close 30 years, but they had to start somewhere. To expect Sea Shepherd to singlehandedly shut down the entire whaling industry is unrealistic.<br><br><br><br>
And, in fact, Sea Shepherd has saved whales, which was their mission.<br><br><br><br>
You haven't managed to get the world to stop hurting animals in however long you've been trying (if you have been trying, I don't know), so I guess your tactic isn't working. And that applies to everyone who's trying to stop animal abuse then, because animal abuse is still happening. As though social change of that magnitude happens immediately or within a very short time span.</div>
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i didnt make an argument saying that i expect s/shepherd to singlehandedly shutdown the entire whaling industry, my argument is that the aggressive approach watson adopts in trying to stop whaling wont help stop it imo. ya know, even the i.r.a. had to admit in the end that bombing people in england to try and stop the troubles in ireland wasnt working. they went back to non violent and non confrontational negotiating with people in the end.<br><br>
and i agree with you that social change takes time, in fact, ive been one of the first and few people to argue this point on vb with people like yourself in discussions about welfarism and why i support it until change takes place, so youre not telling me anything new that i havent previously suggested before. social change of this kind can take several generations and its best achieved by non aggressive means if people want the change to be permanent and supported by the majority of the public.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That's a ridiculous standard. Social change takes time.</div>
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I agree. I don't understand the criticism that "it's been X number of years and nothing has happened." It doesn't matter to them the value of X, it seems to be more coming up with negative criticism than any constructive criticism.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kali</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
if people want the change to be permanent and supported by the majority of the public.</div>
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Well, you realize they already have a lot of popular support - perhaps even the majority...the population has already been won over - the whaling is illegal. Sea Shepherd is just doing enforcement. What would you do if a child was being killed in front of you, and you had the means to stop it?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>NZVeggie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I heard an interesting argument the other day (second hand argument) that was pro whaling.<br><br><br><br>
They were stating the opinion of a japanese person who couldnt see the problem with whaling - after all what is the difference between shooting a deer (or bambi as they were referred to) for food/sport (as many westerners do) compared with shooting a whale for food.<br><br><br><br>
Now I know (almost) everyone here would be against both scenarios, but of course many omnis are fine with hunting, but not with whaling. I just thought this person made an interesting point for omnis to think about.<br><br><br><br>
Any further thoughts?</div>
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perhaps because deer are not a species at risk for endangerment as of yet? i'm sure that's how they would justify it.
 

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kali</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
the cause is good but i dont agree with watsons methods. hes no hero to me. i find it difficult to look up to or support people who are willing to resort to violence or put peoples lives at risk.</div>
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what's he supposed to do? ask the whalers to kindly put down their harpoons?
 

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I think Watson is supposed to walk up to the whalers and say "hey there dude, please stop that whaling thingy cuz it's hurtin' the whales".
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think Watson is supposed to walk up to the whalers and say "hey there dude, please stop that whaling thingy cuz it's hurtin' the whales".</div>
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Whalers: "OOPS! Sorry. My bad, dude."<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/laugh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":lol:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nogardsram</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I agree. I don't understand the criticism that "it's been X number of years and nothing has happened." It doesn't matter to them the value of X, it seems to be more coming up with negative criticism than any constructive criticism.</div>
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i dont like paul watsons methods cuz theyre too reckless, aggressive and violent for me, and im even more critical of him when his aggressive methods havent actually managed to stop the japanese from whaling in the 30 years that hes been doing it .where im from, thats considered a reasonably constructive criticism to make of him.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Well, you realize they already have a lot of popular support - perhaps even the majority...the population has already been won over - the whaling is illegal.</div>
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sure i realise theyve got support, but theres also criticism of his methods out there too. i dont agree with all of the criticism and i dont agree with all the praise either.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Sea Shepherd is just doing enforcement. What would you do if a child was being killed in front of you, and you had the means to stop it?</div>
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er, call the cops and stop ****ing around trying to play at being a vigilante like watson is trying to do.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>skfamiliar</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
what's he supposed to do? ask the whalers to kindly put down their harpoons?</div>
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i would prefer it if he was a different kind of activist, more peaceful. he could lobby my government to hassle the japanese into stopping thru careful and diplomatic negotiation, but hes not interested in that because its not as personally gratifying, exciting or romantic as being a pirate on the high seas with everyone telling you what a hero you are <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/undecided.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":-/"> people who are out there fighting causes like this one are often in it as much for their own gain as they are for the animals involved. if i sense that in an activist then i get suss about them and it screws up their credibility for me.
 
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