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This is one common phrase I get from omnis. "If you don't kill/eat animals because they are living beings, then you shouldn't kill/eat vegetables either for the same reasons"<br><br><br><br>
What do you think it's the real difference from the "killing" point of view? They laugh if I tell them that vegetables have a different nervous system... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":(">
 

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Do plants feel <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5821&highlight=central+nervous+system" target="_blank">pain?</a>
 

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We're not really killing the veggies. From my point of view Veggies aren't really alive...the plant that they grow from is...Say if you have a banana tree in your backyard and you go out and take a banana off...your not killing it or the tree...the tree will grow another banana. The tree is producing that banana and making it grow. The banana is not alive. Of course this is just my opinion.<br><br><br><br>
Ashley
 

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It's very simple. Even if they argue that plants feel pain. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":rolleyes:"> It takes more plants to sustain a meat-based diet than a plant-based diet. The statistics are out there to back that up, I don't know exactly where they are though.
 

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If you're really that concerned, you should only eat fruits and veggies that grow off of a plant, not things like lettuce, or kale, or carrots, where you have to take the whole plant in order to consume it. (It'll die eventually anyway even if you take a few leaves off it to "save" it from the pain, so you may as well eat the whole thing.)<br><br><br><br>
Vegetables have water coursing through them. When part of the plant is cut or chopped off, the water flow is disrupted. Some plants "heal" themselves--take zucchini for example. Y'know when you slice it open and it gets all slimey? Then if you let it sit, it'll seal over the part that's open to the air? That doesn't mean that it feels pain, it's just a reaction to the air. It's not thinking, or feeling. It doesn't know that it's been cut or chopped off in the sense that animals know that. (including humans) Veggies don't have brains.<br><br><br><br>
Don't sweat it. Eat your vegetables.
 

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I eat vegetables because I don't like them. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
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Plants do feel pain. Only another pain then mobile living creatures. They feel change of environment.<br><br><br><br>
Why I eat vegetables and no animal products? Because of protest against the human way of treatening animals. Animals should be free. I also don't like the way humans are with plants/flowers. Flowers are being sold and people bye them to put in their home. Plants are being manipulated so they can grow bigger. Such things I don't like.<br><br>
So I don't eat animal products and I also eat organic food if I can. Also I try to avoid every manipulated food (mostly this is coming from the US).
 

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Yes, we are killing vegetables, but we don't put vegetables in slaughterhouses and factory farms to suffer for years with little to no space to move before killing them in atrocious ways... Heard of the chickens that were fed alive into a wood chipper? Wouldn't most people sacrifice a vegetable (which probably either can not feel or feels in an entirely different manner) to prevent horrific practices such as this one?
 

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If it really bothers you, consider frutarianism... No plants are KILLED by frutarians, as fruits are not alive themselves. Beans are considered fruit in this respect, so it is certainly possible to maintain a balanced frutarian diet.
 

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I know people roll their eyes at this question (do plants feel pain?) but I think it's an important one to consider if only for our own peace of mind. It's a valid question and deserves a considered answer. With a bit of research and thinking I came to answers that satisfied me, and I feel that much more confident in answering the question now.<br><br><br><br>
I think pain is also the wrong the thing to be considering. A much more accurate question would be 'do plants suffer?' Of course, this depends on your definition of suffering. That's something else to be thinking about <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"><br><br><br><br>
Personally, I'm not sure if plants experience pain (as they may feel pain in a different way to animals) but I think that they have no concept of pain, and thus cannot suffer from it. Pain may exist as a biological or chemical reaction, but the question of whether it is an unpleasant or uncomfortable event is what you should be asking, IMO. The essence of veganism is to avoid suffering, not to avoid killing.<br><br>
However, I still believe in respect for ALL life and act accordingly.<br><br><br><br>
Just the position I'm at right now <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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Heh, I just realised the link MsRuthieB posted already discusses the things I said <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by Vegantastic</i><br><br>
Plants do feel pain. Only another pain then mobile living creatures. They feel change of environment.<br><br><br><br>
Why I eat vegetables and no animal products? Because of protest against the human way of treatening animals. Animals should be free. I also don't like the way humans are with plants/flowers. Flowers are being sold and people bye them to put in their home. Plants are being manipulated so they can grow bigger. Such things I don't like.<br><br>
So I don't eat animal products and I also eat organic food if I can. Also I try to avoid every manipulated food (mostly this is coming from the US).</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
I totally agree with you Vegantastic!
 

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Yea... they can say "we're killing vegetables" all they want to but<br><br>
carrots don't bleed and there's no such thing as potatoes having a respratory system and until they or any other veggie/fruit/grain/bean/nut develop these things, I'm just going to keep eating my plant based foods and maybe encouraging those people to study deeper into the biological world of plant vs. animal so they can bring <i>intelligent arguements</i> to the conversations instead of spouting off stupid rubbish....<br><br><br><br>
but hey, that's just me. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D">
 

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unless you're an autotroph, something's gonna die for you to survive... that's a fact of life. Quite frankly, i'd rather kill plants, which have no nervous system or any other way of feeling pain as far as i can tell, than animals.
 

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For me, the killing isn't the point; it's the pain and suffering that animals obviously feel and vegetables and fruit obviously don't. Just watch the different reactions when a pig gets it's throat slashed (similar to a human reaction) and a plant gets cut in half (nothing).<br><br><br><br>
A good question for omnis is: Why do they draw the line where they do? If you kill and eat pig, why not eat dog or cat? If you kill and eat dog or cat, why not monkey or ape? If you kill and eat monkey or ape, why not a human?<br><br><br><br>
Chimps have been taught sign language and other intelligent skills which are beyond the abilities of some humans. The point is, regardless of intelligence or species, any living being that can feel pain or suffer has an undeniable right to live in a way natural to that being and avoid cruelty and torture, including painful methods of slaughter.
 

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"And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus. " - Tool
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">"Heard of the chickens that were fed alive into a wood chipper?"<br></div>
</div>
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They are sometimes -: little male chicken because they cannot lay eggs!
 

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An interesting thread - and perhaps deeper than it may look. For many omnis, there is little or no sense of ethical obligation to animals - no matter how obvious their pain and suffering - because they are not human and hence seen as ethically irrelevant.<br><br><br><br>
Philosophically speaking, how do we determine that a particularly entity should be regarded empathetically, rather than exploitatively? History is full of groups who have regarded other humans exploitatively, because they had a different skin color, language, religion, customs...<br><br><br><br>
Today, many recognize the ethical necessity of seeing all humans empathetically, not exploitatively. A smaller number extend that attitude to animals as well.<br><br><br><br>
Putting aside the "facts" about different entities and what we infer from their nervous systems about their capacity to feel, suffer, experience, etc. ... the reality is that on a visceral level we tend to empathize with creatures that are more like us, both physically and behaviorally. We have little difficulty describing a dog, horse, cow, or cat as feeling anxious, frightened, curious - or experiencing pain. Birds perhaps evoke a less intense response, fish even less. Mollusks, insects? Worms?<br><br><br><br>
The truth is we don't really know. The farther we get from human beings, the less easy it is to have any kind of consensus about what it might feel like to be that creature. What is it like to be a clam? A plankton? A redwood tree? A radish sprout?<br><br><br><br>
And what is it like to be a rock? Conventional wisdom says it is not like anything at all - there is nothing there. But how do we know? We don't. I've never been a rock - at least not that I can reliably recall. Have you?<br><br><br><br>
Martin Buber said we have basically two kinds of relationship with our world, an I--it relationship, or an I--thou relationship. Many people have become vegetarian because they relate to animals in an I--thou sort of way, and killing them for food then becomes viscerally, morally, and philosophically unacceptable.<br><br><br><br>
In human relationships, we can derive benefit from one another without descending to I--it exploitative attitudes. And in some cultures, people derive benefit from animals, but the animals are still respected and deemed partners in a transaction. Does this make a difference to the animals? I don't know, but it seems to make a difference to the humans - pulling them back from the excesses of cruelty, brutality, and exploitation that characterize some of our own cultural practices, such as the meat industry.<br><br><br><br>
I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to know exactly where the line should be drawn.<br><br><br><br>
I keep thinking (and this is from my personal spirituality) that there must be some way to be in "right relationship" with the sources of our food, whether they are plants, or animals of varying degrees of separation from us. Everything we eat comes from either the killing or the amputation of some other entity. An exception is dropped fruit, which is no longer living and the consumption of which is part of its natural cycle of dispersion and procreation.<br><br><br><br>
I don't have answers.<br><br><br><br>
Where I think vegetarians and vegans make a contribution to this question is that we are generally much more in touch with our visceral reactions to killing. We wonder about everything that is presented as food, and consult our consciences. That different consciences answer differently is no surprise.<br><br><br><br>
One thing that is always on my own mind when I eat is, could I have produced this meal myself, from beginning to end? Not in terms of whether I would have the time or energy for it, but rather would my conscience rebel at some point?<br><br><br><br>
Some (such as the Jains and some Hindus) will not eat onions because the entire plant is uprooted, and thus killed. Some (the oft-maligned pescetarians) can see themselves catching and killing fish or seafood to eat, but not breaking the neck of a chicken or slaughtering a pig or cow.<br><br><br><br>
We may never be able to prove what the "correct" human conscience should say. But we can do a lot of good by encouraging each person to listen to their own.<br><br><br><br>
Blessings, Tom
 

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Tom, this is one reason, I think, behind a large number of fruitarians.<br><br><br><br>
It is a tough one, and lines are always being drawn. I'm encouraged by the historical fact that the line continues to be drawn more and more liberally over time.
 
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