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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I don't think what soilman thought about saying later was offensive! Most men think that way, and it wasn't like he actually said it. Sounds like something I would think, actually.


Anyway, back to the orignal topic...I think as long as you are following your hunger signals and doing some sort of exercise on a regular basis, you needn't worry about what you weigh. Weights are such an individual thing, and height/weight charts are really just a guideline. As long as you FEEL OK, and the doctor says you're healthy in every other way, I think you should be fine.
 

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b4s writes:

"I don't really understand why a person needs to weigh a certain amount. Isn't it more important that the weight is muscle, and not fat? What's the big deal with having to weigh enough?"

You need to be at least a certain weight, in order to have adequte fat stores to provide you with energy, and water (fat is converted to water) to carry you thru periods of not eating.

The muscle-fat ratio tends to be somewhat self-regulating. But if you are less than a certain weight, you won't have enough body fat stored in your tissue, to break down and use for energy, your fat-muscle ratio will start becoming too low, and you will need to start breaking down muscle to use for energy (turning it temporarily into carbohydrates and fats before burning it).

If you are more than about 20 to 60 pounds overweight (the number of pounds overweight varies acc to sex and individual) you will start adding only fat, and not muscle, no matter what kind of exercise you do (unless you take injections of androgens).

That is why fat and to only a slightly lesser extent carbs are almost just as important in the diet as protein. In fact, in order to build adequte muscle, you should limit your protein intake to not too many times the rda, and eat plenty of carbohydrates and fats -- otherwise your body will start using that ingested protein as a source of protein, to provide carbs for immediate energy and fat for stored fat.

Go beyond a certain weight, and your fat-protein ratio will become too high. High-androgen males can increase their weight maybe a good 60 pounds beyond their minimum healthy weight, and still maintain the proper muscle-fat ratio, if they do muscle-building exercise. Women only about a 20 pounds they can put on above their miniumum healthy weight. After that, no matter how much exercise they do, their muscles will not grow any more, and instead they will deposit fat.

But below a minimum healthy weight, you will have too little fat in storage, no matter how little exercise you do.

This said, the general idea of what people think is weighing "enough" is usually actually a lot more that what enough really is. The average weight of "normal"-weight people is really more than what many experts think would be the true normal. Most "normal" weight people can lose 20 pounds, even more, and still be adequate in weight, and have a good muscle-fat ratio. Even people who are thought to be "slim and trim" can often lose 15 pounds without becoming dangerously underweight. But there does reach a point where weight goes down so low that it causes disability, and at a point way below that, starts causing damage.

I don't think I had the same energy and stamina at 110 pounds as I had at 120. And I like to have a padding of 15 to 20 pounds above that miniumum of 120 at which i didn't lose any capabilities.

Swimmers often like to add maybe 10 or 25 extra pounds to purposely have a higher fat-muscle ratio -- this helps them keep warm in cool water, and to swim long distances without running out of energy. And they might burn 10 pounds of fat, lose 10 pounds of weight, during a long swim.
 

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The "are you feeling alright" story was slightly embroidered and embellished for dramatic effect.

I didn't really remember exactly what the woman said. So I made some parts of the conversation up, when "transcribing" it here. I suppose my lack of adequate memory, to transcribe it more accuately, could have been due to Alzheimer's. I can't remember if I've been diagnozed with Alzheimers or not.
 

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Well, I would still recommend weight training. Not to get big and bulky, but to increase weight and definition. Soilman had great advice, but weight training will help you "fill out".

I am 5'8" and weigh 115. About 5 years ago, before I was veggie and vegan, I weight trained and worked out alot. I also ate healthy, though I wasn't vegan, but I did eat well and low fat. When I weight trained I weighed almost 130 ( I gained about 10 pounds by weight training then, up from 118-120 before I weight trained). I didn't like that though, being I'm a girl, and I am small framed, but it goes to show what weights will do for you!! I was actually pretty much the same size as I am now, but I guess I had more muscle then. My upper body (arms) was more defined anyway. My thighs were, too.

So, if you want to LOOK fuller, go with weights, in addition to what soilman said. You will LOOK bigger, even if you're really not. If that makes any sense.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by FishAreCool

I don't think what soilman thought about saying later was offensive! Most men think that way, and it wasn't like he actually said it. Sounds like something I would think, actually.


Anyway, back to the orignal topic...I think as long as you are following your hunger signals and doing some sort of exercise on a regular basis, you needn't worry about what you weigh. Weights are such an individual thing, and height/weight charts are really just a guideline. As long as you FEEL OK, and the doctor says you're healthy in every other way, I think you should be fine.
Yeah, i agree with that. I feel my best at around 120, no matter what the charts tell me, and they always say I should weigh more. I also don't feel my best weighing much less. Just go with what feels right. Your body knows.
 

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yep, by all intents and purposes, i'm underweight. but i'm really not, i've always been this size and it's just the way i am. but all charts say i should weigh about 5 or 10 lbs more. really i don't see how a few lbs makes a difference. who cares about weight, it's just numbers and means nothing. it's all about how you feel, and if how you look is part of how you feel, then do what you think is best. if you want to gain fat and not muscle, go for it.

personally i prefer a guy with muscle on him than a guy with 'meat' on him. a thin but well built man is more attractive, to me, than a larger but not well built one.

and yes of course you have to change your diet if you're weight training, i thought i'd mentioned that. generally if you're excercising or training you burn a lot more energy and have more of an appetite anyways, so getting extra calories shouldn't be hard if you obey your stomach, it's just a matter of researching where your calories should be coming from. lots of proteins and carbs and good fats
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by FishAreCool

I don't think what soilman thought about saying later was offensive! Most men think that way, and it wasn't like he actually said it. Sounds like something I would think, actually.




I'd probably sock a guy in the face if he said something like that to me! Why do guys have to think about sex and naked women all the time? I'd hate to think that everytime I meet a new guy who looks like he thinks I'm attractive, he turns out to just be wondering what's under my clothes.

When I meet attractive men, I don't want to say to him "take your clothes off," I want to say, "What are you doing tonight? What do you like to do? Do you have a girlfriend?"

b4s
 

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'When I meet attractive men, I don't want to say to him "take your clothes off," I want to say, "What are you doing tonight? What do you like to do? Do you have a girlfriend?""

now now B4S, what exactly are you hoping to get out of an attractive guy asking you those things, if the end result isnt to get in his pants? some meaningful conversation? lol
 

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Hey, I like sex, but at least I want for me and the guy to know and like eachother well for eachother's minds before we F***. I'd rather turn an attractive man into my boyfriend instead of just my toy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Isn't the whole thing that she'd said something mildly offensive to him, and he wasn't gonna turn around, "Hey, I like the way you insult me baby, what you doing later?" *pointy-finger-click-motion*

Sounded like something from D. H. Lawrence or an older Gerald Durrell to me, kinda strong willed, grumpy but humoured with it.
 

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b4s writes:

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Why do guys have to think about sex and naked women all the time?

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I think it's cultural b4s; part of the culture of the industrialized world. I do believe that it is not a good cultural phenomenum.

I wonder if I am unusual, in that no such thought occurred to me at the time of the event, at the time I was offered an ambulance ride to the hospital, for heat prostration? Indeed, the young woman was very kind, and thoughtfully concerned about my well-being, and it would have been a very rude way for me to respond, if I had responded with a thought of the kind I remarked about here.

This thought only came to me later, when, after I read Kreeli's comment that I was "hot," and I remembered the woman at the supermarket, a little while earlier, had remarked that I was a different kind of hot.

It didn't occur to me to think about sex and naked women at the time of the incident -- only later, when I was writing about it.

Perhaps this is because I really have not only superficial, but deeply ingrained -- good manners; or perhaps this is simply a result of advanced age; it's hard to tell.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Nope, gotta say, I reckon it's an instinct thing. Bear in mind we're descended from monkeys, and if you look at most mamalian species there's a pattern of males with many mates, therefore more competition between males, therefore sex has to be a more active and driven thing than for women.

Or at least that's just a theory of mine.

And hey, VeganKat... gotta admire your honesty! A woman after my own sentiments.


Russ
 

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I think it's normal to wonder what the other sex would be like in bed. I don't think women think about what the man looks like under his clothes so much, but I do think we think about what it'd be like to do the other person, if that makes sense.
I mean, if you are talking to someone who you feel somewhat attracted to, it's hard not to have the thought of sex with that person in the back of your mind. Because if you find the person attractive, and especially if you can tell they find you attractive, too, then you have sexual vibes going on between you. I don't find it insulting to know that a man is thinking of me that way. I only find it insulting when it's some strange pervert following me around in Wal-Mart or the bookstore.
 

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HD writes:

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but I do think we think about what it'd be like to do [emphasis soilman's] the other person, if that makes sense

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Of course, in the story I related, the intention of, and the effect of, me saying "[yes, I could use an ambulance] -- if you get in the ambulance with me and take your clothes off" -- would have been exactly what Brake4Squirrels pegged it as: "a very rude and offensive thing to say" (to a person I didn't even know.) Not that her well-intentioned, but poorly expressed, suggestion that I might need medical help, deserved a rude response. In fact, according to Miss Manners: rudeness must not be met with more rudeness, but rather with politeness. But Miss Manners doesn't seem to have any objection to people thinking of rude retorts; she just objects to people using them.

All B4S said, at first, was that it would have been rude for me to say that. Which i absolutely agreed with. Then she seemed to be saying that although such thoughts, spoken or unspoken, seemed commonplace, among men, that perhaps in addition to not saying such things, perhaps the fact that men thought them so much, was indicative of there being something wrong in the world.

In summary, everyone seems to agree that, unless we want to be rude on purpose, it is best that we do not say such things to people we don't know. What we disagree on, is whether there is something wrong with thinking them.

My opinion is that while it is natural and normal to think them, it would be a better thing, for the happiness of people in general, if we didn't. My remark that perhaps I ought to have said that, was in jest. And I don't think anyone, B4S included, actually thought i would have really said that to the young woman. What I think B4S was getting at, was that there was something intrinically not quite right, about the fact that people had such thoughts, even if they didn't say them. And I have to agree that it would be better if we didn't.

The short, incomplete explanation is that it objectifies people, and objectively categorizes them as to their sexual characteristics, rather than according to the whole people that they are. Sexual characteristics are only a part of the whole. If they are the first thing you think of, when you think of someone -- that tells us more about you, than about them. What it tells us is that (1) you have a interest in and desire for sex and (2) you put that interest and desire ahead of other things. This is simply not attractive in a person.

What is attractive in a person, if they are interested in me, including possibly interested in sex, would be what B4S claims she wants to says to men she is interested in:

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I don't want to say to him "take your clothes off," I want to say, "What are you doing tonight? What do you like to do? Do you have a girlfriend?"

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That would get my interest more than a woman who came up to me and said "hello, what do you think about getting in my car and taking your clothes off?" Really. I wouldn't be turned on by a strange woman coming up to me and saying that. And if she said "wanna go shopping for fruits and vegetables with me, at about 7 pm" and was really thinking "I'd like to get him in my car and get his clothes off," even though she hardly even knew me, I think I would realize she was thinking along those lines -- and be turned off. There is something about such directness that speaks of lack of choosiness -- which isn't attractive. It suggests she just wants something sexual from me, and doesn't care about me as a person -- which isn't attractive. It also suggests other things about her which make her seem less attractive. An attractive woman would not want to do things this way. I'm not quite sure how to explain why.

An attractive woman would think things would be more interesting, if we both got about the same idea at about the same time.

And so would an attractive man. So if I wanted to be an attractive man, and remain an attractive man -- i wouldn't suggest such a thing unless and until i was reasonably able to ascertain that the woman was also thinking the same thing.
 

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Wow, that was quite an analysis!

I don't know, I just hate knowing a guy is after my body before anything else, and it's even more hurtful when he makes me believe that he likes me as a person, when the truth is just the opposite. I feel that I'm pretty attractive, but I have a LOT more to offer than just my looks.

Russel, actually, both we and monkeys are decended from the same primate, its not that we came directly from monkeys. But anyway, yes, I know all those reasons why men are more sexually aggressive. It doesn't have to be this way though, and they can certainly control it and behave nicely for the benefit of us women!
 

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B4S writes:

Quote:
yes, I know all those reasons why men are more sexually aggressive. It doesn't have to be this way though, and they can certainly control it and behave nicely for the benefit of us women!
Exactly. But you use exactly the opposite argument for eating fish. You say that you think perhaps is "has" to be that way; that we have to eat fish, and that we shouldn't control it, and behave nicely, for the sake of the fish.

My opinion is that we can certainly control any evolutionary impulse we have to think we need fish, and behave nicely for the sake of the fish. There may be evolutionary precedent for people eating fish, but there is not any real scientific evidence that it ever was, or now is, a nutritional necessity, in order to have optimal nutrition. In fact, most of the nutrional evidence (as opposed to evolutionary evidence) points to just the opposite -- that it is nutrionally better not to eat fish. It doesn't have to be this way -- people eating fish.

I do think that human women are worth making more of an effort for than for fish. But I wanted to point out that you pointed to evolutionary precedent as being an important factor that one should take into account when choosing one's diet, and pointed away from evolutionary precedent as being a important factor that one should take into account, when when men choose how to behave toward women.

I think it is better for everyone involved, if men didn't treat women rudely, and cite "evolution" as justification; similarly, i think it is better for humans and fish, if humans didn't eat fish, and cite "evolution" as justification. Though the former is far more important, the second is quite possible also -- and tends to get us in the habit of doing things the right way, instead of doing them the habitual, or traditional, way.
 

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b4s writes:

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I don't know, I just hate knowing a guy is after my body before anything else, and it's even more hurtful when he makes me believe that he likes me as a person, when the truth is just the opposite. I feel that I'm pretty attractive, but I have a LOT more to offer than just my looks.

=================

That seems to be exactly the same thing I said in my long "analysis" -- only I said it in a more long-winded way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
<< I think as long as you are following your hunger signals >> If your fat already tho, these hunger signals will go off more often, ignoring them loosing the wait will later make them not go off as much :p <--gets on the roof of gotham's grocery store and flashes the hungry signal!

<<(fat is converted to water)>>

than why not screw the fat and drink lots of water?

<<Why do guys have to think about sex and naked women all the time?>>

Steroeotype, i know girls who are hornier and outright about it more than me :p Girls are just as aggresive, this stereotype of men being sex-craved maniacs and girls being inoccent makes me laugh. I've never pushed any girl for sex, i let the do the pushing, hell i've never even approached a girl to talk to them i let them come to me, and it goes on and on like this. Maybe cause im not an upright citizin and i hang with the wrong crowd or whatever, i guess normal girls dont want sex that bad who knows :p
 
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