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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Those of you who know Epski, know he's been working on a documentary titled "I'm Vegan." He just released this interview from the film, with Gary Francione. It's good stuff.<br><br><a href="http:" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5pDU1yMWMw</a>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Epski is a long-time VB member, who is an independent film maker, and a fierce advocate for Vegan activism. He's the president of the Boston Vegan Association, and an owner of the all-vegan pizza restaurant, Peace O Pie, in Boston. He's also a good friend. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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Gotta laugh at the image of inviting Ingrid Newkirk to your house for dinner and her raiding your kitchen and throwing out your milk and ice cream! Not the sort of conversion technique anyone on this forum would recommend. And yet look what resulted.
 

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I <3 Gary Francione, he's awesome.<br><br>
The documentary looks pretty good. I'm interested to see who else was interviewed.
 

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That was amazing <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smitten.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":smitten:">
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>KarmaVegan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2879742"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I <3 Gary Francione, he's awesome.<br><br>
The documentary looks pretty good. I'm interested to see who else was interviewed.</div>
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Here are a few more interviews from the film.<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/vegandocumentary" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/vegandocumentary</a><br><br>
Epski traveled across the country interviewing people for the film. I can't wait to see it all come together!
 

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love gary francione. a lot people seem to give him crap but he's just very logical.
 

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The most logical guy ever (at least as far as animal exploitation is concerned ^^). I love his work.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>bronzebed</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2879780"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
love gary francione. a lot people seem to give him crap but he's just very logical.</div>
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<br><a href="http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737283/new-welfarist-scum" target="_blank">http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737...welfarist-scum</a><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"><br><br>
Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.<br><br>
There's a certain logic to that line of thinking to, doncha think?<br><br>
But what do I know? I'm new welfarist scum and I don't blog.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>SomebodyElse</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2879712"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Gotta laugh at the image of inviting Ingrid Newkirk to your house for dinner and her raiding your kitchen and throwing out your milk and ice cream! Not the sort of conversion technique anyone on this forum would recommend. And yet look what resulted.</div>
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I didn't know that Ingrid Newkirk was the person who first introduced Gary Francione to veganism. And now she is his archenemy.<br><br>
In any case, I think the very fact that Ingrid Newkirk would think it was a good idea to trash the food in a refrigerator when a guest in someone's home, is indicative of the personality type which later allowed her to think that all her campaigns and publicity stunts are a good idea.<br><br>
It is amazing the difference good or bad leadership can make in a social movement. We have seen what can be accomplished by leaders like Martin Luther King at one end of the spectrum, and we have now seen what can be accomplished by the likes of Ingrid Newkirk on the other.<br><br>
Well, at least she is not killing puppies and kittens.<br><br>
Oh wait...
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2879988"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><a href="http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737283/new-welfarist-scum" target="_blank">http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737...welfarist-scum</a><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"><br><br>
Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.<br><br>
There's a certain logic to that line of thinking to, doncha think?<br><br>
But what do I know? I'm new welfarist scum and I don't blog.</div>
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In this sense, Gary Francione and Ingrid Newkirk are polar opposites. Each possessing the one half of the puzzle that the other one is missing.<br><br>
Vision without action is a daydream.<br><br>
Action without vision is a nightmare.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>bronzebed</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2879780"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
love gary francione. a lot people seem to give him crap but he's just very logical.</div>
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There are two parts to logic: the structure of the argument and the truth of the premises. Gary Francione uses the right structure. It's just the other part where he fails.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2879988"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.</div>
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The man has published six books about animal rights, has a podcast, and a blog. Not to mention that at the end of the interview he talks about leafleting and there are pamphlets on his website. He's done many many interviews and debates about his animal rights. If you looked at his forum, you would notice that there are people from all across the world on his website. Gary Francione has influenced a lot of people, including myself, to realize that it's logically wrong to hurt animals.<br><br>
If he walked around talking about factory farms to the students at his college, not in his classes, he would probably get fired. The parents wouldn't like that.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2879988"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><a href="http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737283/new-welfarist-scum" target="_blank">http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7737...welfarist-scum</a><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"><br><br>
Oh by the way, I check by the yahoo groups for the Adopt A College campaign on a daily basis. A young woman leafleted the college Francione actually teaches at, and most of the students there had no idea what was happening in factory farms. Perhaps what the animal protection movement needs more of is not logical professors who reach 30 or so students a year but dedicated activists from all walks of life actually raising awareness about these issues all across the world.<br><br>
There's a certain logic to that line of thinking to, doncha think?<br><br>
But what do I know? I'm new welfarist scum and I don't blog.</div>
</div>
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Haters gonna hate.<br><br>
You seem to talk about factory farming a lot. I, on the other hand, do not think factory farming is the ultimate problem. Animal commodification and exploitation is the problem.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>KarmaVegan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880120"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If he walked around talking about factory farms to the students at his college, not in his classes, he would probably get fired. The parents wouldn't like that.</div>
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I have never heard of a professor getting fired for handing out pamphlets on the campus.<br><br>
Also, I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that the vast majority of people who read Gary Francione's work are already vegan.<br><br><br>
-Eugene
 

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I don't really understand this need to compare yourself to a legal/philosophical scholar in a dick-measuring contest, where instead of talking about penis size you're talking about the number of converts or how many leaflets you've given.<br><br>
I have no doubts that many grassroots activists have converted more people than Francione or Regan have. I would even dare to guess that Francione wouldn't disagree with that, given that he emphasizes how there are no leaders in the movement etc. That doesn't prevent me from appreciating the work Francione and Regan have done in their own contexts, even though I disagree with them on some things (especially with Francione). They advance AR issues in an academic context. Others advance AR issues in the artworld. Others in their family life. Everyone does their part. And while it might be best if everyone's part was optimized to make the largest difference possible, I'm still happy that people are at least doing something.
 

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<a href="http://siteanalytics.compete.com/abolitionistapproach.com+vegansoapbox.com/?metric=uv" target="_blank"><img alt="" src="http://grapher.compete.com/abolitionistapproach.com+vegansoapbox.com_uv_310.png" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br>
Not to toot my own horn too much, but if you compare my website <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com" target="_blank">http://www.vegansoapbox.com</a> to Francione's website <a href="http://www.abolitionistapproach.com" target="_blank">http://www.abolitionistapproach.com</a> with any major website ranking tool, you can see just how limited Francione's reach is. Also try typing in this website (veggieboards) and maybe vegan.com or peta.com and see how many hits they get. They get way way way more than either my site or Francione's site.<br><br>
Francione preaches to the converted.<br><br>
You can read my criticisms of Francione in more detail at these links if you're interested:<br><a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/criticism-is-not-enough/" target="_blank">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/criticism-is-not-enough/</a><br><a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/logical-persuasion/" target="_blank">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/logical-persuasion/</a><br><a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/property-status-and-liberation/" target="_blank">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/property...nd-liberation/</a><br><a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/readability-rights/" target="_blank">http://www.vegansoapbox.com/readability-rights/</a>
 

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Seven, as I am sure you are aware, one of the common criticisms of Garry Francione's ideas is that it implies that there is nothing for people to do as activists, other than sit around and wait for the world to become vegan. I don't think this criticism is valid, but I can see how Garry Francione's behavior invites this criticism.<br><br><br>
-Eugene
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2880173"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Seven, as I am sure you are aware, one of the common criticisms of Garry Francione's ideas is that it implies that there is nothing for people to do as activists, other than sit around and wait for the world to become vegan. I don't think this criticism is valid, but I can see how Garry Francione's behavior invites this criticism.</div>
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I don't see how Gary Francione writing about the theory of animal rights rather than leafletting around campuses invites the criticism you mention. It seems to me, rather, that people who disagree with Francione's arguments or are offended by his approach (which I do think is often a problematic approach), turn it into pretty much a textbook case of an ad hominem argument, where Francione's choices as an individual are seen as relevant for assessing the legitimacy of his arguments.<br><br>
The argument you're presenting seems all the more absurd to me, given that Francione's focus is exactly on vegan advocacy, and its superiority to everything else.
 
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