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I ♥ Vegan Guys ◕‿◕
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I always thought that plants don't have a nervous system, nor pain receptors or a brain, therefore they couldn't experience pain.

However, one omnivore wanted to be smart with me and said "And if plants don't have a nervous system, how is it that a venus fly trap can tell when a prey has wandered into its mouth?"

Anyway, just been arguing with peeps about plants being able to feel pain. No matter what I say they continue to think they are always right and that vegans are just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong. :/ hmmmmm no sense even trying with some.
 

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I think it's just a reaction set off by a trigger (insect, etc). A mousetrap can tell when a mouse/cat's tail/finger is on it in the same sort of a way, but it isn't aware of what's going on. I'm not an expert, though, so someone else may be able to correct me and/or fill in the blanks that I wasn't able to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thanks for your input veggiholic ^^, but yes...I need someone who can explain how the plant can sense that a fly has landed on it, so that it can then snap shut and consume it. o_o My arguments become invalid without it. Not like they would believe me anyway though lol. These days you have to show online proof of having some sort of PHD for anyone to believe even a smidgen of what you say LOLOLOL
 

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Flytrap

There's an explanation here, basically it is all done by pre-programmed electro-chemical responses to stimuli. No brain or consciousness required.

Quote:
The Venus Flytrap is one of a very small group of plants capable of rapid movement, such as Mimosa, the Telegraph plant, sundews and bladderworts.
The mechanism by which the trap snaps shut involves a complex interaction between elasticity, turgor and growth. In the open, untripped state, the lobes are convex (bent outwards), but in the closed state, the lobes are concave (forming a cavity). It is the rapid flipping of this bistable state that closes the trap,[4] but the mechanism by which this occurs is still poorly understood. When the trigger hairs are stimulated, an action potential (mostly involving calcium ions-see calcium in biology) is generated, which propagates across the lobes and stimulates cells in the lobes and in the midrib between them.[11] Exactly what this stimulation does is still debated. The acid growth theory states that individual cells in the outer layers of the lobes and midrib rapidly move 1H+ (hydrogen ions) into their cell walls, lowering the pH and loosening the extracellular components, which allows them to swell rapidly by osmosis, thus elongating and changing the shape of the trap lobe. Alternatively, cells in the inner layers of the lobes and midrib may rapidly secrete other ions, allowing water to follow by osmosis, and the cells to collapse. Both of these mechanisms may play a role and have some experimental evidence to support them.[12][13]
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Flytrap

There's an explanation here, basically it is all done by pre-programmed electro-chemical responses to stimuli. No brain or consciousness required.
Thank you ^^ I used that to help the argument. Not that they would listen anyway. They seemed rather clueless about the subject and asked this other omnivore for help, basically. So yeah, they might just keep saying I'm wrong ...well just because haha LOL.
 

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Riot Nrrrd
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I'd tell your friends that you absolutely agree with them that plants being eaten suffer, and if we want to be moral people we should reduce plant suffering by adopting a vegan diet. See, cows, pigs, chickens, and so on all consume ... wait for it ... PLANTS. It takes quite a few plants to produce a pound of animal stuff. You can reduce the plant suffering by consuming the plants directly.

Or, you can ridicule them for using stupid arguments that in all likelihood they don't actually believe. But gentle ridicule. Something like 'that the best you got?'
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hmmm I think that's a good point. Instead of arguing with them, agree that plants feel pain, but by consuming a veggie diet, we are contributing to less pain because we are eating them directly instead of eating animals that eat more plants than we would xD. That will throw them for a loop ^_^
 

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I do not think it is a good idea to leave a bizarre claim (plants suffering) unchallenged. Especially since it keeps being repeated again and again by omnis everywhere. I see this as not that much different from leaving "fish is vegetarian" unchallenged.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I do not think it is a good idea to leave a bizarre claim (plants suffering) unchallenged. Especially since it keeps being repeated again and again by omnis everywhere. I see this as not that much different from leaving "fish is vegetarian" unchallenged.
What do you mean by unchallenged? Sorry I'm honestly confused >.> I know that when I actually try to discuss with omnis about how plants can't feel pain because they do not have a pain receptors, nor a nervous system, nor a brain, they still end up repeating themselves about how plants feel pain or how my views are flawed blah blah. I have debated this 5-6 times this week and it grows tiresome when the omnis start beating around the bush, picking at other things about how we still kill animals anyway (even though I counter this on them too) and then they go right back to how vegans are torturing plants... There is no getting through to most of them, so I can see how actually agreeing with them and throwing them for a loop might just dumbfound them a little too much XD
 

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Riot Nrrrd
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Quote:
I do not think it is a good idea to leave a bizarre claim (plants suffering) unchallenged. Especially since it keeps being repeated again and again by omnis everywhere.
The thing is NOBODY makes the argument because they actually believe it. They're trying(and failing, although they often don't realize how epic their failure is) to be clever and dismissive. If they're not gonna play by accepted guidelines of interpersonal discourse ('don't say silly crap just to get a rise out of someone'), why should the rest of us? 'Plants feel pain' is in the same class as 'the English royals are actually reptillian aliens', 'Jewish bankers secretly control all the world governments', and 'Barack Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim who is also a follower of a radical Christian minister as well as being a radical secularlist seeking to destroy religion'. I treat it as such.

Another approach - don't try to prove plants don't suffer. The other person is the one making the extraordinary claim. They need to provide exemplary evidence. You don't need to demonstrate anything. Kind of fun to watch them sweat and realize they can't back up their 'clever' claim - both because it is complete hooey and because they don't actually believe it in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
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Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post

The thing is NOBODY makes the argument because they actually believe it. They're trying(and failing, although they often don't realize how epic their failure is) to be clever and dismissive. If they're not gonna play by accepted guidelines of interpersonal discourse ('don't say silly crap just to get a rise out of someone'), why should the rest of us? 'Plants feel pain' is in the same class as 'the English royals are actually reptillian aliens', 'Jewish bankers secretly control all the world governments', and 'Barack Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim who is also a follower of a radical Christian minister as well as being a radical secularlist seeking to destroy religion'. I treat it as such.

Another approach - don't try to prove plants don't suffer. The other person is the one making the extraordinary claim. They need to provide exemplary evidence. You don't need to demonstrate anything. Kind of fun to watch them sweat and realize they can't back up their 'clever' claim - both because it is complete hooey and because they don't actually believe it in the first place.
I agree with what you are saying. No one who has taken a basic biology class would put forth the notion that plants feel pain. They are only doing it to cause a stir and get you wound up. When you agree with them, and play along, it will throw them for a loop and they will be on edge. I'm going to try this more. But even when I have said something along the lines of it like "less plants die by eating a plant based diet." they still say "we're all murderers so why does it matter." @[email protected]
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post

The thing is NOBODY makes the argument because they actually believe it. They're trying(and failing, although they often don't realize how epic their failure is) to be clever and dismissive. If they're not gonna play by accepted guidelines of interpersonal discourse ('don't say silly crap just to get a rise out of someone'), why should the rest of us? 'Plants feel pain' is in the same class as 'the English royals are actually reptillian aliens', 'Jewish bankers secretly control all the world governments', and 'Barack Obama is a Kenyan born Muslim who is also a follower of a radical Christian minister as well as being a radical secularlist seeking to destroy religion'. I treat it as such.
Why would people who make the "plants feel pain" argument just for ****s and giggles care about the "well this way we eat less plants" argument either? If they can't listen to arguments, the conclusion to me is that you should throw up on their face, not to present some particular argument.
 

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Riot Nrrrd
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Quote:
just for ****s and giggles care about the "well this way we eat less plants" argument either
They can't imagine a response so they think you won't be able to either. If they're just messing with you the conversation stops (probably no point in continuing it anyway if they're just trying to cause trouble). If they're not interested in having a conversation - no loss. If they think they've hit upon a clever unanswerable argument, well, that notion has just been squashed. So the ball is now on their side of the net. Which is the idea. It's not intended to persuade them of my side, but to throw a wrench in the works on theirs. Puking on them rhetorically. Play offense, not defense. Assume control of the conversation.
 

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Originally Posted by Sydneybelinda View Post

Hi guys,

Us human beings were never meant to be meat eaters... If you look at our hands and our teeth we lack the ability to rip open and rip apart flesh.. Only due to enhancements in technlogy have we been gven the ability to do so - and that includes catching ad trapping anmals. Scientists have proven that not eating meat increases our lfe span.

That being said - I could never stop eating meat it just tastes so damn good im like an addict.. mmmmmm sorry guys xox
Does this have anything to do with venus fly traps?

Also I'm confused, you don't think humans should eat meat but you're on a vegetarian message board saying you have no intention of giving it up? Veggieboards is a support forum for vegetarians and vegans only, so if you have no interest in becoming vegetarian this isn't the place for you.
 

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Sydneybelinda- Are you interested in being a vegetarian? Maybe you could start your own thread in the New to Vegetarianism section of the board, I'm sure a lot of people would be eager to help you. Many veggies start where you are, thinking they'd never be able to give up meat. :)

I don't buy that humans aren't "supposed" to eat meat, and the lack of claws and fangs isn't exactly compelling evidence. Many omnivores do not have those things. Conversely, there are some herbivores that do have claws and teeth. The evidence overwhelmingly favors that humans are, indeed, omnivorous by nature. However, just because we can eat meat doesn't mean that we should.
 

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On topic...

The venus fly trap info is really cool, werewolf girl.

Personally I actually do wonder whether plants "feel" in some way that we cannot detect. I do think that it's important not to exploit plants and to treat them with respect. I don't like the idea of cutting flowers just because they're pretty, for example, but there is no cruelty in eating to live.

I generally don't mention these ideas I have to people because it tends to alienate me. LOL I've responded to the plant suffering argument by asking people how they'd feel if they had to kill a chicken vs. having to pick an apple off a tree. People know that one requires violence and the other does not.
 

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Plants can not feel pain. All movement, plants and animals, are caused by charged ions like calcium. Evolution . . . if it works, stick with it. The difference between plant and animal movements are very complex, but the way the venus flytrap moves is nothing like the way an animal would move. Now back to the pain . . .pain is a response given by the brain. For instance, you touch a hot stove, your nerve cells register the signal and send it to your brain who then sends a signal back to your hand for it to move. I am over simplifying but for pain to be felt, a nervous system must be present. The nervous system involves a brain which plants do not have. Plants can definitely send and receive signals, but their systems are nothing like our nervous system. Fish are a bit different because they have nerve cells masses (like a pre-brain) depending on the species. I supposed the pain issue is up for debate because they do respond to stimuli and react, but still way more complicated than plants.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
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Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post

Does this have anything to do with venus fly traps?
Also I'm confused, you don't think humans should eat meat but you're on a vegetarian message board saying you have no intention of giving it up? Veggieboards is a support forum for vegetarians and vegans only, so if you have no interest in becoming vegetarian this isn't the place for you.
Typical bumpers.
 
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