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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all - new to this board - good to see it is so lively!

Grateful for peoples thoughts on whether vegetarianism can be seen as being very "animal friendly".

Even though vegetarians abstain from eating meat can it be argued that following a vegetarian diet ( with large dairy product consumption ) will eventually will result in the animals commercial induced death - and that therefore vegetarianism on an "animal friendly" basis it is a useless exercise? It may result in fewer deaths but can it realistically be argued that it causes none?

Struggling with this - am a vegan at present (and have been for quite a few years) and trying to justify to myself that going back to vegetarianism is not a completely backward step.

Grateful for any reasoned comments.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
As a recent vegan (9 months), I'd have to agree, especially in light of the commercialized dairy industry. I am appalled at myself that I turned a blind eye for so many years after becoming vegetarian.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by albagael [snipped]

Grateful for peoples thoughts on whether vegetarianism can be seen as being very "animal friendly".

Even though vegetarians abstain from eating meat can it be argued that following a vegetarian diet ( with large dairy product consumption ) will eventually will result in the animals commercial induced death - and that therefore vegetarianism on an "animal friendly" basis it is a useless exercise? It may result in fewer deaths but can it realistically be argued that it causes none?

As a lacto-ovo who is trying to minimize my consumption of dairy and eggs, here's my viewpoint.

Vegetarianism is certainly much more animal friendly than meat eating, though not as conscientious as veganism. As you've said, it results in fewer deaths, but the fact remains, dairy and egg production do contribute to animal suffering and, unfortunately, many deaths.

Is non-vegan vegetarianism a useless practice? If the choice is between remaining vegan, or going back to including meat in your diet, I'd say definitely not. But if you're trying to justify whether it's worth it to remain vegan, I'd say being vegan contributes less to animal suffering than being lacto-, ovo-, or both.

If you feel you must go back to consuming dairy, look for the Free Farmed label. The Free Farmed label is administered by American Humane. Farms which are certified Free Farmed have to meet certain humane standards for its animal operations. Animals must be:

  • FREE from unnecessary fear and distress, by providing animals with conditions and care that limit stress
  • FREE from unnecessary pain, injury, and disease, by prevention of disease through rapid diagnosis and treatment
  • FREE from hunger and thirst, by ready access to fresh water and a diet that maintains full health and vigor
  • FREE from unnecessary discomfort, through an appropriate environment, including shelter and a comfortable resting area, enabling of the expression of normal behaviors, and sufficient space, proper facilities, and company of the animal's own kind
 

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Why do you have to start consuming dairy again? You can be a vegetarian without consuming dairy... I'm almost there...
 

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Yea. If your eyes are going blind from reading all the small print and you just can't handle veganism anymore... Does that mean you have to sit down with a glass of milk? You can still avoid obvious dairy products.

I think there are two types of vegetarians: Those who are "lazy" and just avoid obvious slabs of meat, but still down hunks of cheeze and lots of jello pudding... And those who are conscientious, and try to minimize their consumption of animal products as much as possible.

The first type probably just didn't like a steak they once got fed as a child and declared themself vegetarian. The second, however, is "animal friendly." As long as you do the best you can to decrease suffering, well, cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
shewolf......just want that feeling of not standing out in a crowd again, not getting strange looks when you ask if things are vegan etc. I'm sure you know the feeling as vegetarians get the same sometimes.

Don't get me wrong I am not trying to run down vegetarians just trying to get someone to justify that I would still be doing 'my bit' if I did choose that way again.

I didn't start out to be vegan to be noticed but that is how it seems to turn out when you are with omnis - not that I am ashamed of being a vegan it is just the hassle that gets to me ....and the lack of other vegans in this area. Glad I came to this board though as it has given me a bit more inspiration reading all the postings and reminded me why I went from vegetarian to vegan - thanks to Molly - she has re-emphasised the compromises I would be making if I made the change.

The reason I made the change to vegan is still the same - I watched a BBC Horizon programme about factory farming and decided I could not in all conscience carry on eating other animals, then after being veggie for a year or 2 realised I wasn't doing as much as I could - I guess that hasn't changed either!!

.......think I'll stick with it.
 

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"I didn't start out to be vegan to be noticed but that is how it seems to turn out when you are with omnis - not that I am ashamed of being a vegan it is just the hassle that gets to me"

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Well, if you ever ahve annoying things happen just come here and rant
...you'll get tons of sympathetic replies


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" will result in the animals commercial induced death"

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I'm more concerned with their lives than the fact that they are killed. If you really wanted to eat eggs, you could find a small family that has a few hens that run around. But that's pretty hard to find. Otherwise, all eggs and egg procucts or ingredients originate from hens trapped in little cages in long dreadful barns. That's not a way to live in my book.

I hope you don't let the pressure get to you. It's hard to be different sometimes but is it really worth it to fit in and give up your independant thoughts and beliefs to do so ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You could always just tell people that you are vegan for health reasons...which wouldn't be a lie because it's unhealthy to eat dairy and meat. Humans are the ONLY animal that drink milk past childhood...and not to mention that they drink milk produced for another animal. Too many people are either allergic, or intolerant to milk..and I would take that as a sign. Check out this website..

http://www.notmilk.com

The guy who runs the website is a bit "odd" and that's putting it politely...but he does make some really good cases. You can see for yourself what is bull and what is real.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by albagael

It may result in fewer deaths but can it realistically be argued that it causes none?

Struggling with this - am a vegan at present (and have been for quite a few years) and trying to justify to myself that going back to vegetarianism is not a completely backward step.

Grateful for any reasoned comments.
The issue is not whether it "causes" (in fact) animal deaths.

If that were the issue, then you'd just be back in the whole "collateral deaths" arguments of the anti-veg people.

The real issue is this: the death of an animal is not necessary for a vegetarian to eat; the death of an animal is necessary for a meat eater to eat (at least those meals involving meat).

Put another way, the meat eater is willing the killing of an animal for his meal; the vegetarian is not. That's a basic moral difference right there.

If you want to go beyond that and reduce animal suffering and actual deaths further, then veganism is appropriate.

But I don't agree that the (lacto-ovo) vegetarian stage is morally meaningless.

I also think, that from a political standpoint, with 95 percent of the population omni, that trying to pit the vegetarians against the vegans is dumb. "Divide and conquer" is what you do to your enemies, not to yourselves--not if you have any common sense.
 

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I agree with Michael. If you can feel comfortable with ordering something with diary in it at a restaurant with friends/co-workers, then o.k. You could be more strict and try to keep mostly vegan foods at home. I think it's just hard for some people to so different from everyone else. As long as you stay vegetarian than you're helping the cause.

-LINDS
 

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I also agree with Michael. Don't over-think it. My mom was always famous for saying "do what your heart tells you to do dear"
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe



I also think, that from a political standpoint, with 95 percent of the population omni, that trying to pit the vegetarians against the vegans is dumb. "Divide and conquer" is what you do to your enemies, not to yourselves--not if you have any common sense.
My thoughts exactly. Well said.

Mskedi
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
It isn't a competition. Live your life to your standards and what best suits you. There is nothing wrong with changing it when circumstances change, too.

Don't burn yourself out worrying or fretting over what's the right move. Do what fits your life right now.
 

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i was vegan for close to three years (vegetarian for some time before that). this year i started consuming some animal products (namely cheese). i rarely eat dairy and only eat eggs when they are in something (which, other than mayonaise is practically nothing..). i think it is possible to 'ethically' buy and consume animal products. i try to buy cheese from local farmers who respect the animals. just do whatever you want.everyone cant be vegan... and some people seem to do better on certain diets than others. if youre confortable with consuming dairy, eggs, or even meat then do it. if you are concerned about the morality of changing your diet... as i mentioned before - carefully choose where you get your animals products.

just because your vegan doesnt mean youre friendly to animals. it's a lot more than just diet.
 

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I'm ovo-lacto, and where I can, I try not to eat huge amounts of dairy. I've never given much thought to veganism until about a year ago, and the more I think about it, the more I feel as though veganism is right. I'm not suggesting any kind of divide within the vegetarian community - The more people that stop eating meat, the merrier!

So I'd say "If you're already there, why go back?" It doesn't matter if you do end up going back to being ovo-lacto, but if I was in your situation, I'd stay vegan.

Anyhow, vegetarianism is more accessible for the general public than veganism, so on one hand, it's easier for a lot of people to accept.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by kristadb

It isn't a competition. Live your life to your standards and what best suits you. There is nothing wrong with changing it when circumstances change, too.

Don't burn yourself out worrying or fretting over what's the right move. Do what fits your life right now.
seriously! Do your best and find what fits into your life at this moment. I have a few friends who were vegan and went back to eating meat because they were dealing with some hard stuff in their lives. Now both are slowly working back. I honestly don;t know if those two could have dealt with it on tope of the other stuff. I am glad they did what was right for them. I do think it's cool I can try and help 'em since they are the person who was responsible for my goign vegatarian and the one who helped me finally go vegan.
 

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People "need" to eat meat because they "were dealing with some hard stuff in their lives" ?

I think people are generally too easy on themselves and too selfish.
 
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