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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I still need help finding land for a vegan farm.

I love love love gardening. I easily learn how soil supports the physical needs of plant roots, and plant's nutrient needs. I easily learn about organic chemistry of what goes on with soil micro-organisms, and how make the soil somewhere where plants thrive. At a practical level, it is so simple, and so organized. I learn how to add things to the soil so that bacteria are happier, and then the plants are happier. I love to take out my soil test kit and test soil for usable forms of nitrogen, and for available phosphorous, available potassium. I like to test the pH. I send the soil to Cornell Cooperative extension and they tell me about a bunch of micronutrients, and about how much organic matter the soil has. I see the effect of adding compost. I see the effects of adding limestone. I see how the plants get happy, and fat. Then I kill them and eat them. Ar haha.

I hate finding consumer products and buying and selling things. I need help with it from someone who likes finding things to buy and buying them.

How do real estate listings work? It seems very complicated. Disorganized.

The mathematics of soil chemistry is very precise. For all practical purposes, all the organic chemists have the same formulas with the same constants. Only at the level of cutting-edge advanced research do they offer different formulas from each other, and different values. The mathematics of dollar values of land, on the other hand, is controversial and confusing, at every level of understanding. One person wants $1000 per acre, another wants $50,000. It is hard to see why there is such difference. The land is similar chemically and ecologically. Same distance from the center of the earth, same distance from the sun. Same lattitude. Price should be the same; price different.

I love soil. I love compost. I love little baby plants. I love mature plants. All of these, I like to look at them, smell them, touch them. I like hand tools and power tools. I love to cut weed-plants at the root and cover them with soil or bring them to the compost pile. I like to pull little weeds out with my fingers. I could spend all day pulling weeds out from around the plants I want to later kill and eaten. One weed after another, I love it.

I don't like looking for land on the internet. Which seller? Realator or direct sale? Which realator? Which land? It makes me feel ill. Sitting in front of the computer trying to figure out what the land is really like from a crummy picture. If I buy seeds and I don't like the plants that grow from them, I am out $5.00. I don't eat the plants. I compost the seeds. If I buy land and I don't like it, I am out $500,000.00. Maybe I spend 500,000 but can only sell it for 250,000. I still have to pay real estate taxes even if it turns out it doesn't drain well, or there was a factory on it that damaged the soil.
 

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Where are you located? I am surrounded by land that could make a great farm. Clean air, sunshine, rain...It is also beautiful here in the countryside of rural Missouri.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm at Long Island NY Birdwatcher, but Missouri sounds like it might be OK. What kind of climate do you have? What kind of topography?
 

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Find a good local reputable real estate agent and tell them exactly what you are looking for and let them find it for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm not sure I know how to distinguish the good reputable real estate agents from the not so good reputable real estate agents.
 

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Rolling hills, open, fertile plains, and well watered prairie north of the Missouri river is what you would find out here. Like I said, there are many many farms here. In the summers, local farmers sell their goods at the various farmers markets around small towns.

Do a search on vegan farms in MO, you may find some valuable information. Full Circle Farm is one that I know of.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soilman View Post

I'm not sure I know how to distinguish the good reputable real estate agents from the not so good reputable real estate agents.
Ask around , get feed back on different agents
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
birdwatcher, a google search for vegan farm missouri and full circle farm turn up nothing.
 

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It's an all organic farm and they do not have any animals..How is that not vegan?

What about the other info I offered..all you can manage to say is that the farm I mentioned is not vegan? A little rude don't you think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
birdwatcher: "What about the other info I offered..all you can manage to say is that the farm I mentioned is not vegan? A little rude don't you think"

Which other info, the info about rolling hills etcetera? What about it? And what about the climate?

I don't see how I was being rude by indicating that Full Circle Farm's site doesn't mention anything about being vegan. Being all-organic and not having any animals (which the web site did not, as far as I know, mention) still does not mean it is vegan. If it adds animal body parts or animal excrement to the soil it is not vegan. Such practices are sometimes used by the average purely profit-motivated grower, and appears to used by organic growers even more often. To clarify: vegan-organic and vegan farmers neither use such materials, nor use draft animals. Vegan-organic growers, in addition, eschew Haber-process nitrogen (even though it is not made from animals), and also eschew pesticides that aren't "natural," even though some natural pesticides that they use are even more toxic to humans and insects, and don't necessarily bio-degrade any faster, than some pesticides that are made from fossil fuels.

Not to change the subject, but the criteria for whether a pesticide is acceptable to organic growers seems to be a bit arbitrary. For example they will use soap, even though soap is a chemical. It is one of the chemicals that, historically, people made before the industrial revolution. But it still meets all of the other criteria that people generally use to decide whether something fits into the category of natural substance or chemical substance. That is, the soap that people use does not occur in nature; it is made by the chemical reaction of a strong alkalai, such as sodium hydroxide, with an animal or vegetable fat or with fatty acids that have been chemically derived from such fats. The only criterion that it meets, that influences people to believe it is "natural," is that, historically, it was an historically early chemical, made before the industrial revolution. People stumbled upon the chemical process and were able to repeat it, despite not knowing what are today considered relevant facts about how hydrogen, oxygen, and fatty acids were involved. In fact, before the industrial revolution, people made soap a different method than the way it is usually made today. They made soap by mixing fats with wood ashes. Today they make it by a much more complex process that barely resembles the earlier process. Organic growers are willing to use it because it is chemically identical to the historical soap, even though it is made differently. But as far as nitrates go, they won't use nitrates made from haber-process ammonia, but are willing to use historical nitrates, such as Chilean nitrate, which is mined from the earth, but chemically identical. Both Chilean nitrate and sodium nitrate made from haber-process ammonia are nearly pure sodium nitrate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
By the way, I am not saying that the focus that organic growers have, on improving soil tilth with use of organic matter, is bad. Indeed, it is very good. Plants grown in such soil taste better and have more micronutrients, than plants grown in poor soil to which a bunch of industrially-produced macro-nutrients have been added. Such methods allow the soil to remain productive longer, and minimize how much harm is sustained by the surrounding fields and streams. But some of the other beliefs that organic growers hold, seem to be merely superstitious. I am all for using composted plant matter, cover crops, and green manures, and for making maximum use of these methods, and minimum use of pesticides and industrially-produced nitrogenous macro-nutrients. But I am not entirely against using industrially-produced nitrogenous macro-nutrients. It is the same as with feeding people, I believe in getting a variety of plant food, from farms and gardens, minimal refinement and alteration of such food, and minimizing the need for micro-nutrients bottled at factories, and minimizing the amount of need for antibiotics. But I am not entirely against antibiotics and I am not entirely against some alteration of food from how it is found in nature.
 

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Full Circle Farm in Missouri is a vegan farm. I am not sure what website you are talking about but Full Circle does not have a website. It is near my home and most homes here are off the grid powered by wind and sun. I know that there are no farm animals there. They do have cats around.

If you are looking for info on the climate in MO. Google it.

i was only trying to offer the info and to try to let you know about Full Circle thinking that if you were interested in a vegan farm like you said, you would welcome the info and through networking, you would find the info you needed to start your farm.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Sorry birdwatcher, that was another Full circle Farm I found - one in Washington state. I am unable to find anything about Full Circle Farm in Missouri.

birdwatcher writes "i was ... thinking that if you were interested in a vegan farm like you said, you would welcome the info and through networking, you would find the info you needed to start your farm."

My initial point at the beginning of this thread was that although I have the technical skills for cultivating food plants, I don't have the people-skills for locating merchandise and buying, selling, trading, and bartering. For one, I seem to have trouble networking and seem naturally maladapted to doing it. For example if I try to clarify what people have said, not infrequently, instead of getting clarification, I get unexpected, and explicable responses, like for example being accused of rudeness.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I would like to avoid having cats around as they tend to trample plants, dig compost, bury their feces in compost and in newly loosened garden soil, and urinate in garden soil. Cornell Cooperative extension says that one should scrupulously avoid growing food plants in soil or compost that has any degree of contamination with cat waste, and that if a cat does defecate in a food-plant garden, the fecal matter, and if I recall correctly, at least a 4 square foot area of soil all around it, should be removed, to a depth of at least 18 inches. For dog feces and human feces they said 3 square feet I think, and 12 inches deep. They say that cat waste introduces heavy metals and pathogens to the soil, and that the heavy metals will be taken up by the plants, and that this would be unwise to eat them, in any quantity.

I know that there may be some situations where dogs are beneficial, like to find lost hikers, or help blind people find their way around safely. But I am unaware of any situation where cats are necessary.
 

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Cats have, throughout much of their history of being with humans, been considered helpful in killing or preventing rodents such as mice and rats which eat crops and grains. They are mostly useful in preventing rodents in buildings such as barns and grain storage buildings, or any other building where mice or rats are a problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Ludi
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Cats have, throughout much of their history of being with humans, been considered helpful in killing or preventing rodents such as mice and rats which eat crops and grains. They are mostly useful in preventing rodents in buildings such as barns and grain storage buildings, or any other building where mice or rats are a problem.
Being considered helpful for rodent control and actually being helpful, may not be the same thing. (1) There doesn't seem to be any scientific evidence that they actually are helpful. and (2) Even if they did slightly reduce the rodent population, cats themselves can cause their own problems in barns and grain storage buildings. For every wild rodent they remove from a grain storage building, how many cultivated chickens do they kill in a chicken-raising building, that is, in barns? Cat feces and urine in stored grain is surely a worse health hazard than rodent feces and urine. The simplest and most effective way of keeping rodents out of grain storage buildings is creating and maintaining the buildings "tight," so that they don't have ways for rodents to get in. While this may be a bit of work, as animals are resourceful at finding small holes, or making them, it is surely much much better than allowing cats to be in contact with grain. While a few mice and rats may sneak in when doors are left open for people to get in and out, for the most part, keeping the buildings tight creates good control over the problem. The ones that sneak past people can be controlled with traps - which can be a more humane way, towards the rodents, to remove rodents than having them battle with cats or be threatened by cats. They will take chances for food, and risk cat attacks.

Cats are also thought to control birds from eating garden plants. However I have seen this theory in operation, first hand. The birds try and score seeds and berries, despite the presence of cats. Despite the presence of people, too. I have seen them do this, and do this quite successfully. I think the only way to really control birds, with cats, would be to have 20 cats for every 1000 square feet of garden space. And that would surely be more of a problem than wild birds. The cat excrement they would producw would be a far worse problem than loss of say 25% if your tomatoes, and 25% of your corn seedlings. Plus the cost of feeding them would be significant, at this number of cats.

I really really doubt they are as good at controlling rodents as the popular conception imagines them to be, or that they are at all useful, as a matter of fact. As far as I know, professional grain storage companies do not use cats for this purpsose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Here we go, read what Virginia Cooperative Extension (an extremely reputable and reliable source) has to say about cats and rodent control. In short: its a myth.

They also say
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Quite frankly, any benefits that barn cats provide by way of minor rodent control or personal entertainment is more than off-set by the even remote potential for Toxoplasma transfer in pork products.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Again, I have a great deal of knowhow regarding vegan growing, and a great deal of excellent practical experience. I am one of the foremost experts in the world, in the science, technology, and day to day practical knowhow, of vegan gardening. What I need, to have a garden, is someone with people-skills and mercantile skills.

The proverb "what you sow is what you reap" is NOT true.

You can sow all the corn you want, but you won't reap corn unless you know how to maintain your access to the land, over a long enough period of time for the corn to grow. If someone keeps you from getting to the corn, you won't be able to reap it. I could clear some land and sow corn. But how do I prevent people from either interfering with its growth, or from preventing me from reaping it? I know from experience that people won't let me reap the corn. For one, the so-called goverment won't allow me to maintain access to my corn, unless I pay "property tax" on the land.

so in order to cultivate corn successfully, so that you can reap corn and eat it, you need not only plant-cultivation skills, but you need skills for controlling the actions of other people, such negotiating with people, or bargaining with people, or controlling people using force. This is way more of a challenging task, it seems, to me, than controlling non-human animals using force. With a lot of skill and persistance, I can keep birds from getting my tomatoes; keeping people from getting them or damaging them - I don't have the skills to do that.
 
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