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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been vegetarian for about a year now, but the vegans have just informed me that i'm making no impact by not eating meat, that i must be vegan to care or make a difference, so i think it makes sense to go back to eating meat at least a little, if i'm just as bad as an omni. No more inconvenience for me or my family or getting questions asked, then if one day i decide to become a perfect vegan then i'll just stop and i'll finally make a difference. Some of this is obviously sarcasm, but i'm seriously on the edge here, and we have meat in the house for the people that do, so i don't have to go out of my way to actually eat meat or things containing meat, and i'm seriously considering it, i know in a lot of ways it doesn't make sense, but in other ways it does to me. Is there actually a reason i shouldn't go back to it if i like the taste and being a vegetarian doesn't matter? Besides my health, because even when not eating meat i sometimes didn't eat healthy. I was a meat eater for 18 years, so it has always been my "normal" and would be kind of easy to go back to until i go vegan.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>AlixJ18</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908230"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I've been vegetarian for about a year now, but the vegans have just informed me that i'm making no impact by not eating meat, that i must be vegan to care or make a difference, so i think it makes sense to go back to eating meat at least a little, if i'm just as bad as an omni. No more inconvenience for me or my family or getting questions asked, then if one day i decide to become a perfect vegan then i'll just stop and i'll finally make a difference. Some of this is obviously sarcasm, but i'm seriously on the edge here, and we have meat in the house for the people that do, so i don't have to go out of my way to actually eat meat or things containing meat, and i'm seriously considering it, i know in a lot of ways it doesn't make sense, but in other ways it does to me. Is there actually a reason i shouldn't go back to it if i like the taste and being a vegetarian doesn't matter? Besides my health, because even when not eating meat i sometimes didn't eat healthy. I was a meat eater for 18 years, so it has always been my "normal" and would be kind of easy to go back to until i go vegan.</div>
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How about we sleep on it? If you wake up in the morning and decide that the animals aren't worth it, then nobody can stop you.
 

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This is a complete mischaracterization of our arguments. We never said you weren't making a difference, or that you don't care, as anyone can see from viewing the thread here:<br><br><a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/showthread.php?125555-Why-criticize-vegetarians" target="_blank">http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...ze-vegetarians</a><br><br>
My own answer to your question of whether you should just go back to eating meat is in that thread, but I'll quote the main part of it here:<br><br><i>"Let's say you currently eat 4 servings of animal products (dairy and eggs) a day. If you were to go back to being an omnivore, but would consume 2 servings of dairy and eggs, and 1 serving of meat, equaling a total of 3 servings of animal products a day, yes, this would be better. You'd be an omnivore instead of a vegetarian, but you'd be doing more for the animals, at least in terms of direct contribution to exploitation. You'd also be losing whatever influence you have as a vegetarian, though, unless you were to explain to people what you were doing, that there's no difference between the different animal products."</i><br><br>
The only advantage to being a vegetarian is that people will recognize that as you trying to do better by the animals. They'll see it as a valid ethical stance, despite the fact that it is problematic: for the most part they won't recognize those problems with it, because for them it's assumed that we have a right to use animals anyway, even to the point of killing them for our own uses.<br><br>
No one's saying cutting down doesn't help - it certainly does. But it does so regardless of what animal products you cut out: whether it's meat, dairy, or eggs. They're all cruel, and the less you consume of all of them, the better. So our arguments could be just as much about encouraging the omnivore who's completely cut out all dairy and eggs as much as the vegetarian who's cut out all meat: they might be doing equal amounts of good. What we object to is that the vegetarian will be applauded more than the omnivore who's cut out all dairy and eggs, as though she is doing more somehow when she really isn't.
 

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1. I believe you're making a difference, not just by influencing supply and demand for meat with other vegetarians, but by contributing to more social/cultural prevalence of vegetarianism.<br><br>
2. Please don't use animals' lives as a negotiation piece or as a way to make someone change their view.<br><br>
3. In general, I think you shouldn't trust a bunch of people on a message board to determine something as significant as this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kimberlily1983</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908243"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
This is a complete mischaracterization of our arguments. We never said you weren't making a difference, or that you don't care, as anyone can see from viewing the thread here:<br><br><a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/showthread.php?125555-Why-criticize-vegetarians" target="_blank">http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...ze-vegetarians</a><br><br>
My own answer to your question of whether you should just go back to eating meat is in that thread, but I'll quote the main part of it here:<br><br><i>"Let's say you currently eat 4 servings of animal products (dairy and eggs) a day. If you were to go back to being an omnivore, but would consume 2 servings of dairy and eggs, and 1 serving of meat, equaling a total of 3 servings of animal products a day, yes, this would be better. You'd be an omnivore instead of a vegetarian, but you'd be doing more for the animals, at least in terms of direct contribution to exploitation. You'd also be losing whatever influence you have as a vegetarian, though, unless you were to explain to people what you were doing, that there's no difference between the different animal products."</i><br><br>
The only advantage to being a vegetarian is that people will recognize that as you trying to do better by the animals. They'll see it as a valid ethical stance, despite the fact that it is problematic: for the most part they won't recognize those problems with it, because for them it's assumed that we have a right to use animals anyway, even to the point of killing them for our own uses.<br><br>
No one's saying cutting down doesn't help - it certainly does. But it does so regardless of what animal products you cut out: whether it's meat, dairy, or eggs. They're all cruel, and the less you consume of all of them, the better. So our arguments could be just as much about encouraging the omnivore who's completely cut out all dairy and eggs as much as the vegetarian who's cut out all meat: they might be doing equal amounts of good. What we object to is that the vegetarian will be applauded more than the omnivore who's cut out all dairy and eggs, as though she is doing more somehow when she really isn't.</div>
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No kimberlily, you weren't the one saying that, and i wasn't referring to any person that had said anything on the thread, but there were people that said those exact things. I do understand what you're saying though, but we just have different trains of thought, and we're at different places i guess. part of it is that a lot of us don't have support anywhere, people in real life constantly trying to get us to eat meat and just not caring, then coming here and getting no support as well, it is discouraging. And i'm just trying to be honest here and show myself and how i feel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908245"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
1. I believe you're making a difference, not just by influencing supply and demand for meat with other vegetarians, but by contributing to more social/cultural prevalence of vegetarianism.<br><br>
2. Please don't use animals' lives as a negotiation piece or as a way to make someone change their view.<br><br>
3. In general, I think you shouldn't trust a bunch of people on a message board to determine something as significant as this.</div>
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Ya i know, it will be my choice to do what i do, but people's opinions and feelings can influence me to some extent as well.
 

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Don't go back to eating animals, we love you! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smitten.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":smitten:">
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Another thing i mean it's only been a year, and i did have 18 years of every day meat eating, and it being pumped into my head that eating meat is normal and healthy, and i'm still trying to get rid of that influence.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>AlixJ18</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908247"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
No kimberlily, you weren't the one saying that, and i wasn't referring to any person that had said anything on the thread, but there were people that said those exact things. I do understand what you're saying though, but we just have different trains of thought, and we're at different places i guess. part of it is that a lot of us don't have support anywhere, people in real life constantly trying to get us to eat meat and just not caring, then coming here and getting no support as well, it is discouraging. And i'm just trying to be honest here and show myself and how i feel.</div>
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I'm still met with protest at every corner, even though I've been doing this for over a year. I'm not looking recognition or acceptance. It wasn't until just a few weeks ago that I met other vegans. But I don't care what people think, even other vegans who disagree with some of my opinions. I'm not doing this for them.
 

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I guess I'm to fall back on it being more about mentality than actions here, then. If you're honestly, genuinely trying your best to not consume animal products whenever it's possible (and only you know whether you're honestly trying your best), then I'd say that that is what makes you vegan in the sense that really matters. If you're trying your best, but Grandma's going and sneaking dairy into the cookies she gives you, or your mom locks you in your room until you promise to eat a little piece of meat, or you have no money and there are literally no vegan foods in the house and you're famished... the list goes on and on. It's not about the little bits of animal products that might end up in your diet unwittingly, etc. it's about the effort to do as much as you can. If you're seriously, honestly doing that, then in my book you would'd be a vegan in the sense that really matters.<br><br>
Of course, most people, if they're really trying their best, can manage quite well. Not talking 100% vegan purity here - that's pretty close to impossible once you learn about all the ways animals are used in our society - but we can all manage that 99% for the most part, except in exceptional circumstances. More often people are making excuses for themselves when they say they can't do this. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":(">
 

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Don't do it! You <i>are</i> making a difference. It doesn't matter if other people say you aren't. You <b>are</b>, period. Being vegetarian is <i>not</i> the same as being omni. You've expressed an interest in veganism, so even "hardcore" vegans should recognize that vegetarianism could be a stepping stone towards making a "true" difference. Any way you look at it, I don't see how vegetarianism is the same as eating animals. Don't make any rash decisions please. At least think about it for awhile.<br><br>
It's your choice, of course. If you do choose to go back to being omni please come back to veg*nism soon. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">1. I believe you're making a difference, not just by influencing supply and demand for meat with other vegetarians, but by contributing to more social/cultural prevalence of vegetarianism.<br><br>
2. Please don't use animals' lives as a negotiation piece or as a way to make someone change their view.<br><br>
3. In general, I think you shouldn't trust a bunch of people on a message board to determine something as significant as this.</div>
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+1000
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>AlixJ18</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908230"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
the vegans</div>
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Vegans are so ******* evil.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908245"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
3. In general, I think you shouldn't trust a bunch of people on a message board to determine something as significant as this.</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":up:">
 

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I think when someone truly wants to be vegetarian, they will always go back to being one no matter what other people say or what happens. God knows I've fallen off the wagon a few times in the past 12+ years and each time time of falling off, it reinforced to me that being vegetarian is the choice for me. I think you should do whatever you feel is the best choice for you.<br><br>
In the future, it may also help to stop listening to those darn vegans <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>AlixJ18</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908230"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I've been vegetarian for about a year now, but the vegans have just informed me that i'm making no impact by not eating meat, that i must be vegan to care or make a difference, so i think it makes sense to go back to eating meat at least a little, if i'm just as bad as an omni. No more inconvenience for me or my family or getting questions asked, then if one day i decide to become a perfect vegan then i'll just stop and i'll finally make a difference. Some of this is obviously sarcasm, but i'm seriously on the edge here, and we have meat in the house for the people that do, so i don't have to go out of my way to actually eat meat or things containing meat, and i'm seriously considering it, i know in a lot of ways it doesn't make sense, but in other ways it does to me. Is there actually a reason i shouldn't go back to it if i like the taste and being a vegetarian doesn't matter? Besides my health, because even when not eating meat i sometimes didn't eat healthy. I was a meat eater for 18 years, so it has always been my "normal" and would be kind of easy to go back to until i go vegan.</div>
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Dude, just keep doing what you're doing until you're in a position where you're ready to become a vegan. Even vegans can't eliminate suffering with their lifestyle, they can only reduce it.<br><br>
I've been a part of enough discussions on this board to know that there's plenty of leather-wearing/owning vegans on VB who aren't exactly perfect either, so take what they say to you about vegetarians not doing enough with a pinch of nutritional yeast.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Lol thanks guy and ^ too many cats! confusing <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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Alix<br><br>
do as much as you can personally do, in your personal circumstances. Nobody has a right to tell you what to do, or how far you should go along the continuum from omnivore to veganism. Nobody knows what your family and social pressures are like. Anyone who thinks or says 'well, I did, so you should be able to as well' is wrong, and living in a bubble where they fail to understand that everyone is different, and everyone's circumstances are different. That's their problem, not yours.<br><br>
Just know that by cutting out meat, and cutting down on dairy and eggs, you ARE making a difference.<br><br>
I think vegans sometimes get stuck behind the idea that vegetarians cut out meat and then replace it with dairy and eggs instead; so the animal suffering is the same. As a vegetarian, I didn't do that. Maybe as vegans, instead of denigrating vegetarians for not going 'far enough', we should encourage them to replace the dairy and eggs with the alternatives, thereby moving them along the line to veganism - even if they never fully get there (wherever 'there' is - after all, it's just a label).<br><br>
We can encourage them by showing them the alternative foodstuffs, alternative recipes etc, and not being critical of their choice to be a vegetarian. That might work.
 

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Okay, I don't sugar-coat sh**.<br>
If you want tough love, read on. Otherwise, ignore it.<br><br>
Don't be a f***ing pussy. Seriously.<br>
Being a vegetarian is tough, no matter how much support you have. I had an extremely supportive mother when I went vegetarian at 12, and I still had people shoving meat in my face at school. I mean, literally shoving meat in my face. I could've given up back then. But I didn't. Because I've got integrity. And that's what really matters - integrity.<br>
We all have our moments of doubt, but giving up is for pussies. If you can't handle the responsibility, forget the whole thing, but remember the decision you made.<br><br><br>
On a less a**hole-ish note...<br>
And as for "making a difference"... it's not about saving individual animals. It's fantastic if that's a byproduct of what being a veg*n does, but the real reason to cut out meat and animal products is to support a movement. Veg*nism isn't an organization, or a country - it's an idea. Its strength is entirely in the people that follow that idea, and hold it up as a flag. I say it's better to consume more milk and eggs as a vegetarian, than less animal products as an omnivore, because the support you give the industry is only temporary, while the support you give to the cause is lasting.<br>
The animal welfare front has made some great bounds, but the animal rights movement, and the veg*n movement still has social and political steps to take.<br>
It's not about taking on factory farms single-handedly - it's about raising awareness, spreading an idea, and holding up an ideal. Convince people that you are right because you can persevere, because you can show the strength of overcoming hardship, and because you can do it with grace. When people tell me that one person doesn't make a difference, I tell them that I've convinced two people to go vegetarian, and one of those people convinced three others, two of which went vegan. How much further that ripple goes, I don't know, but I do know that if I didn't stand by the decision I made 8 years ago, there would be not one, but six less veg*ns in the world today.<br>
How much of an impact does that make? Probably not much of one. But it does spread the idea, it raises awareness, and it contributes to a future where veg*nism is more widespread.<br><br>
So, hey - it's your choice.
 

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It's never been about any people at all for me. There's very few vegans I can stand, and it's not at all about the few I can stand. None of them layed any path I follow.<br>
Ok, I used to dream of living in an all vegan community, but realized that within the first week, I would certainly murder one of them.<br>
People suck. Animals don't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>imdead-goaway</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908334"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Okay, I don't sugar-coat sh**.<br>
If you want tough love, read on. Otherwise, ignore it.<br><br>
Don't be a f***ing pussy. Seriously.<br>
Being a vegetarian is tough, no matter how much support you have. I had an extremely supportive mother when I went vegetarian at 12, and I still had people shoving meat in my face at school. I mean, literally shoving meat in my face. I could've given up back then. But I didn't. Because I've got integrity. And that's what really matters - integrity.<br>
We all have our moments of doubt, but giving up is for pussies. If you can't handle the responsibility, forget the whole thing, but remember the decision you made.<br><br><br>
On a less a**hole-ish note...<br>
And as for "making a difference"... it's not about saving individual animals. It's fantastic if that's a byproduct of what being a veg*n does, but the real reason to cut out meat and animal products is to support a movement. Veg*nism isn't an organization, or a country - it's an idea. Its strength is entirely in the people that follow that idea, and hold it up as a flag. I say it's better to consume more milk and eggs as a vegetarian, than less animal products as an omnivore, because the support you give the industry is only temporary, while the support you give to the cause is lasting.<br>
The animal welfare front has made some great bounds, but the animal rights movement, and the veg*n movement still has social and political steps to take.<br>
It's not about taking on factory farms single-handedly - it's about raising awareness, spreading an idea, and holding up an ideal. Convince people that you are right because you can persevere, because you can show the strength of overcoming hardship, and because you can do it with grace. When people tell me that one person doesn't make a difference, I tell them that I've convinced two people to go vegetarian, and one of those people convinced three others, two of which went vegan. How much further that ripple goes, I don't know, but I do know that if I didn't stand by the decision I made 8 years ago, there would be not one, but six less veg*ns in the world today.<br>
How much of an impact does that make? Probably not much of one. But it does spread the idea, it raises awareness, and it contributes to a future where veg*nism is more widespread.<br><br>
So, hey - it's your choice.</div>
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Lol somehow your post is one of the nicer ones, and i definitely like the second part.
 
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