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Originally Posted by delicioso View Post

I don't see much difference.
So why do you want to give eggs or dairy to someone, if you're not yourself a lacto-ovo-vegetarian?

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Don't you think the end result is the most important thing?
Yes. The end result in not using your organ to save someone, and not giving someone meat, is different though, in that a human potentially dies in the first situation but not in the second (unless they refuse to eat anything vegan and only use you as their source of providing food).
 

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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Well that comparison wasn't made as a tool for converting omnis, but rather to illustrate the difficulty in supporting violent actions one is strongly opposed to, by using an example which we are not accustomed to see as a harmless "personal choice".
Yes, SS, I get it, but I still don't like it. That kind of language is over the top and divisive. I understand why people use it - I just don't think it's necessary. I guess people like to be perceived as being 'edgy,' but I certainly don't need that kind of convincing. It seems to me people could illustrate their viewpoints without getting all jerry-springer.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

So why do you want to give eggs or dairy to someone, if you're not yourself a lacto-ovo-vegetarian?
I'm vegan, but I put people above animals all the time. Like the other night, when I drove my car to get (vegan) ice cream for myself. Driving and owning a car hurts animals, but it obviously doesn't bother me enough to stop. If I'm going to hurt animals by using power for my computers, and other unnecessary gadgets, I'm going to hurt animals by feeding a seriously ill loved one some 'real' ice cream, if that's what they think they need.

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Yes. The end result in not using your organ to save someone, and not giving someone meat, is different though, in that a human potentially dies in the first situation but not in the second (unless they refuse to eat anything vegan and only use you as their source of providing food).
Yes, they live and MORE animals die. From the animal's perspective, isn't it like saving a loyal to Hitler, Nazi?

You didn't answer my Q about the rape. Is a soldier who stands guard less guilty of rape than his friends who actually, physically rape the girl?
 

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Discussion Starter · #104 ·
Happy I started this thread. Lots of interesting discussion.


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Originally Posted by delicioso View Post

I'd say that meat eaters are pretty equivalent to rapists who were raised to be rapists, in a rapist society, in a world where almost everyone is a rapist and they have commercials on t.v. every 15 minutes about how enjoyable rape is, but as far as I know that place doesn't exist.
I agree with the point you're making here, and I also see the fact that we live in a meat-loving culture as relevant in judging omnivores. That's why I don't think most meat-eaters are as bad as rapists (some are: those who relish torturing animals, for instance). But again, to me, the issue is the victims: I wouldn't care if our culture did embrace and promote rape, or if a rapist was delusional to the point that they thought they were doing a service to their victims... I don't care how delusional the victimizer, and whether that's personal delusion or that brought on / encouraged by society. I care about what's happening to the victims, and I don't want to be a part of it.


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Originally Posted by Dedalus View Post

Uh, except that raping and child molesting are illegal in a 'just' society. As much as we'd all like it to be, it is not against the law to eat animals.
I don't see our society as a "just" one, and if it were, no one would be allowed to go on torturing and exploiting anyone. I don't care that it's legal to exploit and eat animals; it's wrong. I expect others to be able to see that if we're sitting down and discussing it, and if the fact that something is legal is enough to make someone feel they're allowed to do something wrong, there's something wrong with them...

Maybe my expectations of people are too high sometimes, though. Nevertheless, if I can't change them, I can at least refuse to cater to their wishes that I assist them in their wrongdoing.


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Originally Posted by delicioso View Post

Yes. It's the same for everyone, which is why I don't believe in "punishment". We are all what we are and we cannot help it.
As a determinist, I agree with you about the fact that ultimately, you're right, everything is set in stone. If you could know everything about the universe, about all the matter in it, etc. you would be able to predict everything that's going to happen. Cause and effect, over and over again, until... who knows? As long as the universe exists, it seems this is the way it goes. Apparently at the quantum physics level, it doesn't work this way, but... that's over my head.


Anyway, assuming this is the way things work, that wouldn't necessarily obviate the need for punishment. I also don't agree with punishment, in theory: it's not fair/just when you take into account all the factors that make people the way they turn out, and it's not the best way to get people to change, either. So, to me, it's wrong on 2 counts... but at the same time, if it does work / did work, you can still argue that it's justified on the grounds that it will prevent future harms, etc. I wouldn't, but one could.

So, in other words, yes, people are not ultimately responsible for their own actions, according to the deterministic worldview... but we still need to act as though we're free, as though others are free. If we don't, we're responsible for what comes about as a result of that. It's messed up, I agree, but... it's the way it needs to be.


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Originally Posted by Zoe74 View Post

The cultural context matters in the sense that a person's immoral actions can be more forgiveable. That does not mean their actions should be supported, yet I am much less willing to negatively judge an omni's psychology than I am for a child molester. I wouldn't allow a known rapist into my home but I'm certainly not going to exclude all omnis. If I were preparing meat for a dying loved one I don't see that as necessarily supporting their consumption of animals, unless I was sitting there eating it with them, but rather being supportive of that person.
I see it as supporting, or at least not opposing, the consumption of animals, but other than that, I agree with the point you're making. There is a difference in the psychology, on account of the mass ignorance and apathy that's fostered by our society with regards to animal exploitation.

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Originally Posted by Zoe74 View Post

Humans are emotional beings who form loving bonds with other humans and non-humans and tend to favor those they have close relationships with. We are not robots.
I don't think we should let this affect our objective understandings of morality. It might affect our actions, and this might or might not be commendable. It's really tough...
When we or our loved ones are not personally involved, it seems easier to say, it's right not to harm one to help another. And in the case being brought up here, my judgment doesn't change if it does involve me or my loved ones, because I think it's ridiculous to compare the harms involved. But if we're talking about, let's say, needing to contribute to animal exploitation to save your loved one's life... Then it really challenges the one who's trying to be objective. Because as much as I'll think it's the wrong thing to do, that I have no right to it... I don't think I could let my loved one die.

We don't have to limit this to animal exploitation. What about ending the life of a serial killer to save your loved one? Or some random stranger? A child? At what point is there conflict for you, at what point do you let your loved one die? Assume for the sake of the argument that there's no consequences like being put in jail to worry about... I'd like to think I would never, ever hurt another to save my loved ones, because what right would someone else have, to hurt me or my loved ones to save their own? They have none, and neither do I... But at the same time... can you let your loved one die?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by delicioso View Post

I'm vegan, but I put people above animals all the time.
This doesn't really address why you aren't lacto-ovo but engage in what to you is no different from lacto-ovo behavior.

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From the animal's perspective, isn't it like saving a loyal to Hitler, Nazi?
I think some people would save even a Nazi from death.

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Is a soldier who stands guard less guilty of rape than his friends who actually, physically rape the girl?
If he's standing there with the purpose of enabling the others to commit rape, then no.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimberlily1983 View Post

I don't see our society as a "just" one, and if it were, no one would be allowed to go on torturing and exploiting anyone.
That would be utopia, not reality. It's admirable in some ways, that you carry this burden - it just isn't practical.

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Originally Posted by Kimberlily1983 View Post

I don't care that it's legal to exploit and eat animals; it's wrong. I expect others to be able to see that if we're sitting down and discussing it, and if the fact that something is legal is enough to make someone feel they're allowed to do something wrong, there's something wrong with them...
I agree with you entirely. But do you honestly think that comparing the people you are sitting down and having this "discussion" with to rapists and child molesters is a convincing method to get them to agree with you?

If the issue is, as you say: about the victims - which in this case are the animals - then why not keep the conversation focused on the wrong done to animals? I don't think anyone is going to gain any ground by making outlandish and far-fetched comparisons like the ones that always come up in this forum. We have an unlimited source of clearly documented cases surrounding the atrocities of animal abuse - aren't those convincing enough examples to make comparisons with? Isn't the sheer brutality of ongoing animal abuse realities enough of a shock to make your argument for you? Because as soon as you inject a human element into your example - it is no longer about the animal victims - it's about human victims. Related? Yes - but different. And seen differently in the eyes of this society.

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Originally Posted by Kimberlily1983 View Post

Maybe my expectations of people are too high sometimes, though. Nevertheless, if I can't change them, I can at least refuse to cater to their wishes that I assist them in their wrongdoing.
You can refuse, and that's fine. It's clearly a personal choice. As long as the goal is not to 'weed out' those individuals who may act differently than you, for a variety of reasons, and trying to make them feel bad about it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedalus View Post

You can refuse, and that's fine. It's clearly a personal choice. As long as the goal is not to 'weed out' those individuals who may act differently than you, for a variety of reasons, and trying to make them feel bad about it.
Where do you get the idea that someone is trying to "weed out" people who feel differently about feeding animal products and make them feel bad about it? People are just giving their own opinions, and why. It's a choice if someone wants to feel bad about the exchange. I've also seen some "How could you be so heartless to deny feeding a dying person animal products" types of posts, so it's not like the so-called more rigid vegans have the edge on this.
 

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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Where do you get the idea that someone is trying to "weed out" people who feel differently about feeding animal products and make them feel bad about it?
From his own head. That's just what he is trying to do; "weed out" any vegan who he thinks is hard-core and make them feel guilty for driving people back to eating steak.
 

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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

From his own head. That's just what he is trying to do; "weed out" any vegan who he thinks is hard-core and make them feel guilty for driving people back to eating steak.
It's one thing to point out where you disagree with someone's logic and why. But once you veer off into presuming their reasons for saying what they say, you've lost the debate. Any good debate coach will tell you: attack your opponent's logic, but never attack your opponent's motivation.
 

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Originally Posted by Joan Kennedy View Post

It's one thing to point out where you disagree with someone's logic and why. But once you veer off into presuming their reasons for saying what they say, you've lost the debate. Any good debate coach will tell you: attack your opponent's logic, but never attack your opponent's motivation.
I think you should find better ways to get Dedalus's approval and thereby flirt with him than by writing that post.
 

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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I think you should find better ways to get Dedalus's approval and thereby flirt with him than by writing that post.
I can never fool you, Sevenseas. You get me every time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Where do you get the idea that someone is trying to "weed out" people who feel differently about feeding animal products and make them feel bad about it? People are just giving their own opinions...
People are. And I just gave mine.

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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I think you should find better ways to get Dedalus's approval and thereby flirt with him than by writing that post.
In all this brouhaha, I have neglected to say how much I've missed you, Seven. Welcome back, brother.

PS - The above line is not a clumsy attempt on my part to flirt with you, Seven. Maybe sucking up, though. I'm not too proud.
 

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Well, I feed my dogs animal products, so it should be ethically possible for me to do the same for a dying loved one. Purchasing prepared meals from a market is easy enough.

If nothing else, I refuse to judge others by my standard.
 

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My heart felt sympathies to those who lost loved ones.
 
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