VeggieBoards banner
41 - 60 of 114 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,385 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005626"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'll just chime in with a thought for stasher: I don't know how to prepare animal products. I literally don't know how to cook dead animals. I never learned. It's not a skill I have.<br><br>
So let me just get this right... you're saying that if I had a family member who was not vegetarian or vegan but who was so close to me that they'd name me as their preferred caregiver in a time of need, and they wanted me to learn how to cook dead animals for them because somehow all the restaurants closed and no other family or friend was willing to cook and this close loved one absolutely refused to eat any vegan alternatives... you're saying there's something wrong with me if I chose not to learn how to cook dead animals?<br><br>
Really? I can learn CPR and first aid and I can donate blood... I could offer my home and time to a loved one in need and prepare healthy meals for them... but if those meals aren't full of dead animals then I'm lacking in compassion? Really?</div>
</div>
<br>
I don't buy the "i don't know how to cook meat" argument. when i started cooking as a meat eater, i wasn't taking a course, i was just following the receipe. when i became a vegetarian i started cooking lots of food that i didn't touch before, and again, "learning" it was a piece of cake when you follow the receipies<br><br>
the hypothetical situation you described will never exist though. if you can't cook meat you would have to buy a cooked one for the family member once in a while which is still non vegan and i don't see as different than from cooking it
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,945 Posts
I'd be curious to hear from people who <i>would</i> try to save an omni by donating a body part to them, yet <i>would not</i> serve meat to that same dying omni. A lot more animal products are going to be eaten in the first scenario (if it's successful).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,983 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3007957"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'd be curious to hear from people who <i>would</i> try to save an omni by donating a body part to them, yet <i>would not</i> serve meat to that same dying omni. A lot more animal products are going to be eaten in the first scenario (if it's successful).</div>
</div>
<br>
Such a person might not even exist, but it could be the basis for a novel that would practically write itself. Not all readers could necessarily identify with the vegan outlook, at least not at first. But explored themes of self-sacrifice, testing of beliefs, role-reversal, autonomy and reconciliation of opposites could really suck a reader in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,945 Posts
If it's wrong to help a sick omni eat animal prodocts, then isn't it just as wrong to donate a body part to that omni, knowing that they will very likely get better and eat more animal products? In both situations, <b>you</b> are causing more animal products to be eaten.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,983 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3007973"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If it's wrong to help a sick omni eat animal prodocts, then isn't it just as wrong to donate a body part to that omni, knowing that they will very likely get better and eat more animal products? In both situations, <b>you</b> are causing more animal products to be eaten.</div>
</div>
<br>
If so, that would make it wrong to do practically anything that saves a stranger's life, since it's 95 percent certain that the stranger is an omni. Jerk a child out of the path of an oncoming car? Even worse, since that child has several decades of meat-eating ahead of him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>weirdo vegan chick</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3007945"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
i've stayed out of this topic for a while, but it's really been getting under my skin. some of the insensitivity in these two threads astonishes me. the op in the original thread's father was DYING, how anyone could be so heartless as to judge their decision to take care of them is beyond me. the father would be eating animal products whether or not the op was involved or not, they were simply showing compassion to a dying family member. as a nursing student sometimes i literally have to feed people animal products when they are unable to feed themselves. a few weeks ago i had to feed a dying woman some soup which i'm sure had some sort of dairy in it but honestly the only thing on my mind was not the dairy in the soup but the look in the eyes of the helpless, sick, person who could not even speak or move herself let alone feed herself and who needed me to take care of her. does that make me less of a vegan even though i didn't pay for or consume an animal product? that experience i'm sure will stick with me for quite a while, and that helpless sad look on her face kind of haunts me and i didn't even know this woman, i took care of her for a day. a family member i'm sure would be a very trying and heartbreaking situation. some of you really need to take a step back and think about what you are saying, sure you can be all high and mighty on these boards but if you were in this situation would you feel the same? my heart goes out to all of you who have gone through this situation. @Nishani i'm sorry for your loss and i applaud your strength.</div>
</div>
<br>
I think that you need to take a step back and watch Earthlings again. Just because people are suffering does not mean that animals need to suffer. Vegan food is just as nutritious and wonderful as non-vegan food. I agree with Irizary: a dying person does NOT have the "right" to indirectly end the life of of a non-human animal. And yes, for your information I HAVE been in a situation in which I had to care for a dying person. I wasn't a vegan at the time, but if it were happening now I would feed her vegan food. She was diabetic, so if anything it would have helped her.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
236 Posts
i'm sorry if i offended you. i never said that vegan food wasn't as nutritious and i never said it was right to end the life of a non-human animal. but i don't think it's right to put people down for the choices they make in a situation like this that was my point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>weirdo vegan chick</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008018"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
i'm sorry if i offended you. i never said that vegan food wasn't as nutritious and i never said it was right to end the life of a non-human animal. but i don't think it's right to put people down for the choices they make in a situation like this that was my point.</div>
</div>
<br>
I'm not offended.<br><br>
I don't think we're putting people down for making the decision to feed their dying loved ones animal products. What we are putting down is the decision to do so. We're critiquing actions, not people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,983 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008019"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't think we're putting people down for making the decision to feed their dying loved ones animal products. What we are putting down is the decision to do so. We're critiquing actions, not people.</div>
</div>
<br>
Not everyone sees a distinction between those two kinds of put-downs. I don't, and I'm trying. I can see the difference between criticizing a person's motives and criticizing their judgment, or between innocent intent and forseeable outcome of an action. But that doesn't seem to be what you're saying. Are you drawing a difference between what you consider an error and what you consider an act of evil? Can you clarify your meaning about any difference you think there is between criticizing a person and criticizing what that person does? Criticism of a person doesn't necessarily involve name-calling; it can be meant quite kindly and still be criticism of a person. And it always involves a judgment about something that person has said or done.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,385 Posts
well i can see the destinction. we do it all the time, people that we love do things we hatem but we still are on good terms with the. eating meat for example. giving meat to others etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,983 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ira</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008048"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
well i can see the destinction. we do it all the time, people that we love do things we hatem but we still are on good terms with the. eating meat for example. giving meat to others etc.</div>
</div>
<br>
But Ira, what you're talking about isn't criticizing the person <b><i>or</i></b> the action. That's just putting up with stuff you don't like from people you do like. Plus, friends and loved ones manage quite often to criticize one another while remaining on good terms. Whether expressed mildly or harshly, criticism is feedback that gives us information on how others see us. Some people do this more effectively than others, and some people are more open than others to receiving criticism. It can be unpleasant to hear sometimes, and it's not always on target. But without it, each of us would just be existing in a social vacuum and wouldn't know much about how we come across to others.<br><br>
I think the way you and Sequoia are writing, you mean that criticizing a person is making a judgment on whether that individual is basically a good or bad person. Whereas criticizing a person's opinion, or action, is more like saying you think that a good person made a bad call. If that's what you mean, I can accept that, but it's not how I use the term. I see myself and nearly everyone else as a complicated mix of positive and negative (adaptive and maladaptive?) qualities -- some obvious and some masked. I can criticize a person I like, and receive criticism from a person I like, without it seeming like a judgment on anyone's character. If that's what it were about, the situation would be way past criticism; it would probably be about dropping a friendship, or steering clear as much as possible, and quietly ceasing to reveal anything of importance to them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ira</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008048"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
well i can see the destinction. we do it all the time, people that we love do things we hatem but we still are on good terms with the. eating meat for example. giving meat to others etc.</div>
</div>
<br>
Exactly. I don't think that people who eat meat are terrible people. I just think they're making a terrible decision.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,983 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008148"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Exactly. I don't think that people who eat meat are terrible people. I just think they're making a terrible decision.</div>
</div>
<br>
Are you saying that criticizing a person is calling him or her a bad person? To me, criticizing an action addresses only that one action. Criticising a person comes more into play when the action is something that happens over and over, and you see it as coming from a trait in his or her personality. For an example, say you have a family member who is always showing up late for stuff. Saying anything about it might seem kind of rude when it happens, since everyone already knows she showed up late, and she did apologize. In my example, neither kind of criticism says I think she is a terrible person.<br><br>
Criticizing an action: <i>Your showing up late really messed up the meeting. This guy charges by the hour and the meter started ticking as soon as it was time to start, but we could barely do anything until you got there.</i><br><br>
Criticizing the person: <i>You've always been crazy disorganized, but you used to have a killer memory that mostly compensated for it. Now your memory's only okay, and that ramps up the effects of being disorganized. You need a routine you can stick to for checking and confirming things, especially when being late means keeping people waiting.</i>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Joan Kennedy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008205"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Are you saying that criticizing a person is calling him or her a bad person? To me, criticizing an action addresses only that one action. Criticising a person comes more into play when the action is something that happens over and over, and you see it as coming from a trait in his or her personality. For an example, say you have a family member who is always showing up late for stuff. Saying anything about it might seem kind of rude when it happens, since everyone already knows she showed up late, and she did apologize. In my example, neither kind of criticism says this is a terrible person.<br><br>
Criticizing an action: Your showing up late really messed up the meeting. This guy charges by the hour and the meter started ticking as soon as it was time to start, but we could barely do anything until you got there.<br><br>
Criticizing the person: You've always been crazy disorganized, but you used to have a killer memory that mostly compensated for it. Now your memory's only okay, and that ramps up the effects of being disorganized. You need a routine you can stick to for checking and confirming things, especially when being late means keeping people waiting.</div>
</div>
<br>
No, that's not what I'm saying. Nevermind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,408 Posts
humans eating animals goes against my ethics. i wouldn't violate my own morals for someone else, i wouldn't directly enable anyone to do things that are against my morals, and i don't expect anyone i'd ever have to care for (my parents) to ask me to do so. with that said, i wouldn't place judgement on anyone who decides to act differently
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,743 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3007957"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'd be curious to hear from people who <i>would</i> try to save an omni by donating a body part to them, yet <i>would not</i> serve meat to that same dying omni. A lot more animal products are going to be eaten in the first scenario (if it's successful).</div>
</div>
<br>
One is directly participating in and facilitating animal use and cruelty. The other is a possible unintended consequence of not letting someone die (i.e. they eat more animals). Not the same thing. It may be against person X's ethics to purchase, prepare, and serve animal products - thus sending the message that this is an acceptable way to treat animals, and being part of it. But it is not against person X's ethics to donate an organ.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,945 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008585"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
One is directly participating in and facilitating animal use and cruelty. The other is a possible unintended consequence of not letting someone die (i.e. they eat more animals). Not the same thing. It may be against person X's ethics to purchase, prepare, and serve animal products - thus sending the message that this is an acceptable way to treat animals, and being part of it. But it is not against person X's ethics to donate an organ.</div>
</div>
<br>
Donating the organ would be a much worse thing to do from the animals perspective, though. And it would not be a possible unintended consequence, it would almost be guaranteed. You save the life of an omni, they are going to continue on with their omnivorism, gobbling up animal after animal, year after year and that would not have happened if you hadn't saved them.<br><br>
I seriously cannot imagine loving a person enough to donate an organ to them, yet refusing them a frozen yogurt, on their death bed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,743 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>delicioso</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008726"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I seriously cannot imagine loving a person enough to donate an organ to them, yet refusing them a frozen yogurt, on their death bed.</div>
</div>
<br>
They will die without the organ. They will not die without the frozen yogurt. Difference between a need and a want. It is possible to get everyone's needs met here, if not everyone's wants. The ethical ramifications are different for your two scenarios and someone who makes that choice. Not sure how to make that clearer. By your logic, should a this vegan celebrate when anyone they love dies who's an omni, because that means fewer animals killed? You're stretching it way beyond the simple desire for some vegans to not personally purchase, prepare, and serve animal items based on a taste preference.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,032 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3008585"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
One is directly participating in and facilitating animal use and cruelty. The other is a possible unintended consequence of not letting someone die (i.e. they eat more animals). Not the same thing. It may be against person X's ethics to purchase, prepare, and serve animal products - thus sending the message that this is an acceptable way to treat animals, and being part of it. But it is not against person X's ethics to donate an organ.</div>
</div>
<br>
I agree.<br><br>
Perhaps from delicioso's perspective, we're all responsible for anything that is a by-product of any of our actions, which ultimately means anything that happens after our births. It kind of seems that responsibility becomes meaningless.<br><br>
I probably would donate an organ (if it meant I could still live alright without it) and yet refuse to serve a frozen yogurt (unless it was dairy free). I see no problem with that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,009 Posts
Discussion Starter · #60 ·
I'm sorry for Nishani's loss, too. I've also got a relative suffering from cancer, although in her case she's moved towards a vegan diet, and finds that animal foods are something she can no longer stomach. While I'm not taking care of her, I can definitely relate to the part of having a relative in that position, the concern, etc. that comes with that. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><br><br>
At the same time, I can't comprehend how some of you think that those of us who think the way we do about this issue are being insensitive. Frankly, I think it's you who are being insensitive, to the needs of the animals who'll be exploited just so you can avoid uncomfortable encounters with family members. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><br><br>
Again, I'm not saying that there aren't very difficult situations that might arise where you feel you need to go against your own ethics. I'm not saying there are no circumstances under which I would cave in - I've already admitted to a possible scenario where I might. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("> All I am saying is that we should call a spade a spade, admit that we're doing something wrong, and sometimes for selfish reasons. <b>You choose to hurt Subject A because Subject B means more to you and you'd rather help them.</b> <b>That's what it comes down to.</b><br><br>
I think that may be human nature. Doesn't excuse it, though.<br><br>
To delicioso's dilemma, I think I agree with what Irizary's said. I'd be responsible for letting another suffer and die, in the case where I refuse the organ donation and in cases where I provide dairy or meat or whatever to a dying relative.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3006699"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
This has been bothering me too. It makes me feel like a child who needs to be monitored at all times. I recently joined another forum and the mods never close threads or delete posts. And guess what? Things pretty much just work themselves out.<br><br>
Sorry, off-topic. But it has been extremely annoying.</div>
</div>
<br>
I guess the mods are trying to make sure people don't get too offended.. but yeah, it's irritating for those of us who are thicker skinned, enjoy a good debate, and really getting into the fine details of a problem. Personally, I don't see why we can't have a special category for such threads, with disclaimers about their potentially offensive nature. Anyone who's not interested simply doesn't visit...
 
41 - 60 of 114 Posts
Top