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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'll preface this with a (very) brief rant: the rate at which interesting, controversial threads get closed on this forum as of late irks me to no end.<br><br>
The thread I have in mind got closed due to its becoming off-topic, so I thought, why not start it up again in case people have more on their minds to share? I posted in this thread, and was replied to, and would have liked to respond in turn, so I'll do that here. I said that I wouldn't buy and prepare non-vegan meals for a meat eater suffering from cancer, that this person would need to find someone else to do this for them. This was stasher's reply to me:<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>stasher</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Jeez, you mean you would really walk away from a loved one suffering from cancer who is unable to prepare their own meals with the attitude of '**** it, let someone else do it'?</div>
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No. I'd feel bad, because I know they don't know any better or can't be entirely blamed for their apathy, their placing their own needs ahead of the animals suffering horrifically for the satisfaction of their petty desires. But I would <i>never, ever</i> forget what those animals are going through, and I would <i>never, ever</i> put them through it just so someone can eat something they enjoy and have no actual physical need of.<br><br><b>This isn't about putting those animals ahead of any humans.</b> This is about (1) recognizing that a human's suffering when he goes without meat, dairy, etc. does not equal the suffering that exploited animals go through. It's also about (2) recognizing that it's wrong to harm one to help another. I don't value non-human animals higher than humans. I wouldn't torture and kill humans, or pay someone to do so, to feed to a dying carnivorous animal, either.
 

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i didn't want to talk there to not upset the OP, it was more a support thread<br>
but i more or less agree with you. the only thing is that i don't think it is the choice of the caregiver. it is the choice of the person who is comnsuming the food. a few people would simply let someone else take care of it to not go against their values, but would itreally make a difference if someone else did it? i don't think so, actually i believe me doing it would minimize animal products since i would for the most part veganize it
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ira</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005552"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
i didn't want to talk there to not upset the OP, it was more a support thread<br>
but i more or less agree with you. the only thing is that i don't think it is the choice of the caregiver. it is the choice of the person who is comnsuming the food. a few people would simply let someone else take care of it to not go against their values, but would itreally make a difference if someone else did it? i don't think so, actually i believe me doing it would minimize animal products since i would for the most part veganize it</div>
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That's a great point, and I suppose it makes sense to consider doing it for that reason. Still, I don't know... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("> I just don't think I could do it, personally.<br><br>
I also don't think we should ignore the possibility that good things can also come out of what seems like a bad situation that makes us vegans look bad. Should we assume that, for instance, having someone else agree to provide and prepare non-vegan meals, would result in giving more people bad than good impressions about vegans? What can seem like stubbornness and insensitivity to someone who doesn't fully understand our ethics will instead be seen as consistency in values and moral integrity by those who get it.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kimberlily1983</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005559"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
What can seem like stubbornness and insensitivity to someone who doesn't fully understand our ethics will instead be seen as consistency in values and moral integrity by those who get it.</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":up:">
 

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I'll just chime in with a thought for stasher: I don't know how to prepare animal products. I literally don't know how to cook dead animals. I never learned. It's not a skill I have.<br><br>
So let me just get this right... you're saying that if I had a family member who was not vegetarian or vegan but who was so close to me that they'd name me as their preferred caregiver in a time of need, and they wanted me to learn how to cook dead animals for them because somehow all the restaurants closed and no other family or friend was willing to cook and this close loved one absolutely refused to eat any vegan alternatives... you're saying there's something wrong with me if I chose not to learn how to cook dead animals?<br><br>
Really? I can learn CPR and first aid and I can donate blood... I could offer my home and time to a loved one in need and prepare healthy meals for them... but if those meals aren't full of dead animals then I'm lacking in compassion? Really?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ira</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005552"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
i didn't want to talk there to not upset the OP, it was more a support thread<br>
but i more or less agree with you. the only thing is that i don't think it is the choice of the caregiver. it is the choice of the person who is comnsuming the food. a few people would simply let someone else take care of it to not go against their values, but would itreally make a difference if someone else did it? i don't think so, actually i believe me doing it would minimize animal products since i would for the most part veganize it</div>
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I pretty much agree with this. I think it's the choice of the person who eats the food what they do and do not eat, and just because they're unable to buy and cook food themselves, doesn't then make it anybody elses choice. In my oppinion, agreeing to then buy/cook food for that person, isn't making a moral decision about eating animals, it's helping a family member. If you didn't do it, the only real result would be that you'd have to find someone else to do it.<br><br>
Just to make a point as well, when I say choice, I do not mean "people have the right to choose to eat whatever they want" but that the responsibility to make the right choice is that of the person eating the food.
 

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That original topic was <i>kinda</i> about having failed to convert a loved one in good health and accepting that it would be wrong to convert them by force in ill-health?<br><br>
That would make the only real wrong done having failed to convert a loved one, whilst still healthily independent, by virtue of reason alone.<br><br>
Mebbe a little more respect for the immense love and personal sacrifice shown by the OP and a little more of the old "let those without sin throw the first stone"?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kimberlily1983</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005551"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><br>
But I would <i>never, ever</i> forget what those animals are going through, and I would <i>never, ever</i> put them through it just so someone can eat something they enjoy and have no actual physical need of.</div>
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This person would be eating meat anyway if they were healthy, or if they are ill and you found someone else to make their meals, so the real issue isn't about causing death and suffering to animals but to the fact that the caretakers does not want to be the one handling and preparing the meat. Understandable in every day circumstances, just not this one.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Zoe74</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005826"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
This person would be eating meat anyway if they were healthy, or if they are ill and you found someone else to make their meals, so the real issue isn't about causing death and suffering to animals but to the fact that the caretakers does not want to be the one handling and preparing the meat. Understandable in every day circumstances, just not this one.</div>
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So it's OK to hire a nurse to come to your home and administer medications via injection and/or feed the ill person through a feeding tube if that kind of thing makes you queasy, but it's not OK to ask a friend to cook? Really?<br><br>
Step back and look at the situation from the perspective of the caregiver (and here I should remind you that the term "caregiver" is often preferred to "caretaker" because it emphasizes the generosity of the care-provider and humanizes the role). The person giving care gets to decide what they are willing to do, no one else gets to decide that for them. If they can't or won't do something, someone else can. And that's OK.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3006042"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
So it's OK to hire a nurse to come to your home and administer medications via injection and/or feed the ill person through a feeding tube if that kind of thing makes you queasy, but it's not OK to ask a friend to cook? Really?</div>
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It's not necessarily so easy to find a friend who is willing to cook every day for someone for 6 months. And paying someone is not within most people's budgets especially if you are already paying a nurse to come to your home which is very expensive.<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Step back and look at the situation from the perspective of the caregiver (and here I should remind you that the term "caregiver" is often preferred to "caretaker" because it emphasizes the generosity of the care-provider and humanizes the role). The person giving care gets to decide what they are willing to do, no one else gets to decide that for them. If they can't or won't do something, someone else can. And that's OK.</div>
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I lost both my parents to cancer, so I have been in this situation myself. With my father, just getting him to actually keep his meals down without vomiting it back up was a success, so I can't imagine telling him 'no you can't eat this or that even though you can keep it down unlike x,y or z' and at the time I was omni so dietary choices were not an issue. I was living with him at the time and to pay a stranger come to our house to make his meals, simply because I didn't want to touch the kind of meals he wanted, just seems nonsensical. I look at it this way - even if I had someone else to do the cooking, animals would still be dying. Therefore, my choice would not be in the interest of animals or about my father, but it would be about ME and my inclinations. Now given this was someone who dedicated 26 years of his life for me, and made multitudes of sacrifies for me, I would say agreeing to feed this man in his last 6 months of life is the very LEAST i could do to repay him for everything he gave me and I wouldn't consider it generous of me to do so at all. More important than trying to prove some sort of moral consistancy, which, if feeding a dying person meat for 6 months means your morally inconsistant then I guess feeding companion animals meat would as well.
 

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the bigger picture...if it was someone who was veg*n who needed to be taken care of, and all of the family members able to act as a care taker were omnis...should they just ignore the ill persons wishes because of their personal beliefs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005626"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'll just chime in with a thought for stasher: I don't know how to prepare animal products. I literally don't know how to cook dead animals. I never learned. It's not a skill I have.<br><br>
So let me just get this right... you're saying that if I had a family member who was not vegetarian or vegan but who was so close to me that they'd name me as their preferred caregiver in a time of need, and they wanted me to learn how to cook dead animals for them because somehow all the restaurants closed and no other family or friend was willing to cook and this close loved one absolutely refused to eat any vegan alternatives... you're saying there's something wrong with me if I chose not to learn how to cook dead animals?<br><br>
Really? I can learn CPR and first aid and I can donate blood... I could offer my home and time to a loved one in need and prepare healthy meals for them... but if those meals aren't full of dead animals then I'm lacking in compassion? Really?</div>
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Go, Elaine. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
And ditto: I've also never learned to prepare dead animals. As an omni, I used to fry up bacon; every other meat thing I ate was prepared by other people.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Identity_thief</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005645"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I pretty much agree with this. I think it's the choice of the person who eats the food what they do and do not eat, and just because they're unable to buy and cook food themselves, doesn't then make it anybody elses choice. In my oppinion, agreeing to then buy/cook food for that person, isn't making a moral decision about eating animals, it's helping a family member. If you didn't do it, the only real result would be that you'd have to find someone else to do it.<br><br>
Just to make a point as well, when I say choice, I do not mean "people have the right to choose to eat whatever they want" but that the responsibility to make the right choice is that of the person eating the food.</div>
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I see the distinction you're making, and agree, but at the same time, while I think you're right to say we wouldn't be responsible for their choice to eat meat (they're responsible for that), we would be responsible for choosing to facilitate that / make it possible. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><br><br>
I can't put it in strong enough words, how wrong animal exploitation is to me. I want nothing to do with it, as far as is humanly possible. I don't want to pick up eggs or steaks at the grocery store for someone, regardless of whether or not they're paying for it. The people in my life need to understand that, for me, this is as serious as facilitating the abuse of children, for instance, or anything else heinous you can think of. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005654"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Mebbe a little more respect for the immense love and personal sacrifice shown by the OP and a little more of the old "let those without sin throw the first stone"?</div>
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I'm sorry that I've paid more attention to the philosophical aspects of the old thread and not so much the human ones. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("> I have a tendency to do that. I haven't read the entire details of the OP's situation, but saw that he donated part of his liver and a lot of his time, made many sacrifices, and I agree that he deserves our respect for being there for his dad. I didn't mean this thread to offend him, and I hope it hasn't.<br><br>
That said, this thread is now for the purpose of discussing some of the issues that came up in the old thread. So it's quite separate from the original, and isn't about judging whatever choices he's made / is making, but discussing what our own choices would be, what we think is right/wrong, etc.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Zoe74</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3005826"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
This person would be eating meat anyway if they were healthy, or if they are ill and you found someone else to make their meals, so the real issue isn't about causing death and suffering to animals but to the fact that the caretakers does not want to be the one handling and preparing the meat. <b>Understandable in every day circumstances, just not this one.</b></div>
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I disagree, completely. True, I don't want to handle and prepare meat, but it's about more than just being picky, grossed out, etc. Or being stubborn, or whatever other "petty" reasons you might have in mind. It's because I think there are moral implications to my doing so, that my actions would confer the acceptability of animal exploitation in special circumstances (in this case, the fact that a person is sick).<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Freckles</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3006061"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
the bigger picture...if it was someone who was veg*n who needed to be taken care of, and all of the family members able to act as a care taker were omnis...should they just ignore the ill persons wishes because of their personal beliefs?</div>
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That's the thing, to me this isn't about "personal beliefs", this is about what's objectively right and wrong. The choice to be vegan, and to not supply non-vegan things to people, is the right thing to do. The choice to eat meat, and to not supply vegan meals to vegans, cannot by any stretch of the imagination be defined as "the right thing to do". Contributing to exploitation is wrong, and refusing to provide morally neutral meals to a person isn't something that's going to be motivated by moral reasons (or, if it is, the reasoning behind those reasons would be wrong; such, as, for instance, if one believed plants had feelings but animals did not, and ate only meat). That's why it makes sense for vegans to refuse to serve meat to their omni guests, but it doesn't make sense for omnis to refuse to serve vegan food to their vegan guests.
 

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My adult daughter (22) is mentally disabled. She has the mental abilities of a 4-year-old, more or less. She receives government assistance that is intended to go toward her food and housing. She cannot manage money, drive or communicate effectively with strangers. And while she knows I'm a "vegetarian", she's absolutely certain that she doesn't want to be one and will clearly state that she <i>eats meat</i>. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":rolleyes:"> In all honesty, the only meat she eats regularly is a Friday chicken sandwich at school (the only day I let her buy lunch), an occasional burger when we eat "American" out, and when she eats at her grandparents house. She does eat cheese, yogurt and baked goods that are not vegan.<br><br>
A few things you should know - I only prepare vegan food for the three of us to eat at dinner. My husband is a pescatarian - no fish at home however, only when he travels for business. (Believe me, I wish that would change.) So he also eats some non-vegan cheese, snacks, and baked goods that are not made by me.<br><br>
And so, while I'm happy in my decision to allow my daughter to buy lunch one day a week, let her buy frosted poptarts because those are the only things that sit well in her tummy after all the meds she takes, and let her get Kraft Macaroni and Cheese for lunches at home, I'm curious as to what you think my personal limit should be in helping her buy groceries and make food decisions? She basically has her own income and is an adult, but I drive her, help her shop and prepare food, and help her order at restaurants. Is this any different from the person dying of cancer?<br><br>
eta - is this really an activist thread? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thinking.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":think:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kimberlily1983</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3006098"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><br>
That's the thing, to me this isn't about "personal beliefs", this is about what's objectively right and wrong. The choice to be vegan, and to not supply non-vegan things to people, is the right thing to do. The choice to eat meat, and to not supply vegan meals to vegans, cannot by any stretch of the imagination be defined as "the right thing to do". Contributing to exploitation is wrong, and refusing to provide morally neutral meals to a person isn't something that's going to be motivated by moral reasons (or, if it is, the reasoning behind those reasons would be wrong; such, as, for instance, if one believed plants had feelings but animals did not, and ate only meat). That's why it makes sense for vegans to refuse to serve meat to their omni guests, but it doesn't make sense for omnis to refuse to serve vegan food to their vegan guests.</div>
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I totally agree with you that being veg*n is the right thing to do...and therefore the choice I have made for myself. However I dont feel you can push your morality on another person just because you think (know) it is the right choice. I am pretty sure some of my omni family members feel just as strongly about what they think is right and I just dont think a time of medical dependance is the time to try to educate or change someone and for sure not the time to force your beliefs on them. I guess I feel about it the same way i do religion...if that makes any sense...<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kimberlily1983</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3006098"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
That's the thing, to me this isn't about "personal beliefs", this is about what's objectively right and wrong. The choice to be vegan, and to not supply non-vegan things to people, is the right thing to do. The choice to eat meat, and to not supply vegan meals to vegans, cannot by any stretch of the imagination be defined as "the right thing to do". Contributing to exploitation is wrong, and refusing to provide morally neutral meals to a person isn't something that's going to be motivated by moral reasons (or, if it is, the reasoning behind those reasons would be wrong; such, as, for instance, if one believed plants had feelings but animals did not, and ate only meat). That's why it makes sense for vegans to refuse to serve meat to their omni guests, but it doesn't make sense for omnis to refuse to serve vegan food to their vegan guests.</div>
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Clearly, being vegan and not contributing to exploitation is the right thing to do (although refraining from buying animal products does not mean we are not contributing to exploitation - it's everywhere), but this type of "accomplice" or enabling- type reasoning could be applied to so many situations that I don't think it's possible to be completely consistent in all facets of life. Also, what you state in a factual sense as "the right thing to do" in this case is obviously not even universally accepted among veg*ns here let alone omnis. I don't think you would want meat forced on you while in a compromised state simply because of someone else's very strong beliefs that one needs meat to be healthy (and many people do strongly believe that).
 

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It's an animal rights issue.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Poppy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3006119"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'm curious as to what you think my personal limit should be in helping her buy groceries and make food decisions?</div>
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Why do you care? Can't you decide for yourself what your limits are?<br><br>
People post in threads like the one that got closed to offer their ideas of what they would do in a similar situation, and then everyone gets all butt-hurt over thinking they are being told what to do, told they are wrong, not doing enough, etc., and then they call it a battle of who is more vegan, when all any of us are doing is talking about what we are or aren't capable of doing or willing to do, in terms of our vegan point of view.<br><br>
I personally don't give a crap what anyone else does. I'm not here to tell people what to do, or even what I think of what they do. I will stand by a concrete definition of what constitutes vegan behavior. It's your* problem if you don't think you measure up to it.<br><br>
*general you
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Freckles</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3006125"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
However I dont feel you can push your morality on another person just because you think (know) it is the right choice.</div>
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Voting, calling the police to report crimes, merely participating in modern society as a law-abiding citizen means you are pushing your morality on other people every single day.
 

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I make sure, to the best of my abilities, that everyone in my life knows I will not buy, pick up, purchase, or deal with animal products (again, to the best of my abilities). I'm not in any other position, so I don't know how I would respond if my circumstances were different.<br><br>
Given my current life and if any one of my family members were ill, I would serve vegan food and only vegan food. I've stated as much, including if a parent ever had to live with me due to life changes in the future.<br><br>
I don't see it as it being about me, in any case. It's about non-human animals.
 
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