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Hello All

I am new and I am not a Vegan

Just wanted to let you all know that right off the bat.

I am very interested in the topic, not because I want to be a Vegan, but more because I want to learn and for some other reasons.

What I am trying to understand right now is what the Philosophy behind Vegans is concerning meat and why it's bad for us.

From my understanding there are 2 major reasons.

1. Meat is murder...I get this part of it.

2. Meat is bad for you from a health standpoint. For instance the way animals are produced from these large scale meat factories and how things like hormones are injected to get the animal to grow faster, food fed to them to get fatter and (kind of scary) chickens being grown with 2 sets of wings to get more bang for the buck.

My focus on this topic is on #2 NOT #1. And please don't quote me the China Study because I have practically memorized that document.

What I want to know and get your opinions on is this:

Does the Vegan philosophy believe that meat is bad for you (from a health standpoint) because it has

a) always been bad for human kind since the existence of animals.

or

b) because of the way that animals are raised in meat factories today as I described above.

or

Both

?
 

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Hello All

I am new and I am not a Vegan

Just wanted to let you all know that right off the bat.

I am very interested in the topic, not because I want to be a Vegan, but more because I want to learn and for some other reasons.

What I am trying to understand right now is what the Philosophy behind Vegans is concerning meat and why it's bad for us.

From my understanding there are 2 major reasons.

1. Meat is murder...I get this part of it.

2. Meat is bad for you from a health standpoint. For instance the way animals are produced from these large scale meat factories and how things like hormones are injected to get the animal to grow faster, food fed to them to get fatter and (kind of scary) chickens being grown with 2 sets of wings to get more bang for the buck.

My focus on this topic is on #2 NOT #1. And please don't quote me the China Study because I have practically memorized that document.
The problem with what you're asking (and this is just my opinion, so I could be wrong) is that your question is around why meat is bad for *us*.

There is ONE reason people go vegan and that's for the animals.

While I won't dispute that there are health benefits to a plant-based diet, that's not the reason people are vegan. If someone is eating a plant-based diet, but doing it for their own health, then to me....They're not a vegan.

The best example I can think of to illustrate my point, is the fact that I eat vegan 99% of the time. But eating plant-based doesn't make me a Taoist, despite us having identical diets. I don't live by the Taoist philosophy, I don't subscribe to it. So therefore, even though we have similar diets, it would be faulty for me to call myself Taoist. Does that make sense?

Do I care why someone isn't eating animals? Not as much. I think if they can have adopted a plant based diet for their health, then it's only logical that they eventually realise that if we don't need animals to maintain our health, that the killing of animals is even more unnecessary.
 

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Impeach the gangster
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Cbielich, you say you want to become vegan. Have you already become a vegetarian, and do you know the difference between the two? Vegetarians also do not eat meat.
 

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I think you are simplifying number 1 a bit too much also. "Meat" is more than murder. "Meat" comes from living sentient beings, beings with an interest in life, in raising their young, in mating, in being. We do not have a right to exploit them and use them for our own benefit any more than we have a right to do that to eachother. They have a right to their own bodies as much as we as humans do. There are also numerous other issues you left out such as concern over world hunger and population and sustainability of food sources, as well as environmental impact of animal agriculture on our planet and health. There is the issue of violence and how violent acts towards nonhuman animals carries over to how we treat one another.

For me, being vegan is about so much more than health. However, from my own personal experience from a health standpoint, getting meat out of my diet improved my digestion tremendously. Meat is difficult to digest. I used to get this phlegm also that would just coat my mouth and throat and sit in my chest. When I stopped eating meat that went away. The nausea and constipation I used to get also went away. My energy level also increased (I suppose because food moves through faster and is more quickly utilized by the body?). My cholesterol levels naturally improved (comparing fasting blood tests for triglycerides, LDL, HDL, glucose, etc from when I was an omnivore to when I was a vegan for a few years) though they weren't bad before. My consumption of fruits and vegetables and beans and whole grains increased when I excluded meat and dairy also. I have had hypothyroidism for 26 years, but in the years since being vegan, I have needed a lower dosage of thyroid meds on average (I used to average 112 mcgs per day of Synthroid as an omnivore for years; as a vegan I have averaged 100 mcgs or less for a long time). My risk of many types of cancer is probably far less than as an omnivore, though I realize that cancer can arise from other concerns as well. My iron/hemoglobin and B12 blood levels have still been smack in the middle of normal as a vegan, no worries there (yes I do supplement with B12 and get it from fortified foods). I eat a much greater variety of plant food than I ever did as an omnivore instead of relying on a select few foods to meet my needs. As others have said, the health benefits are a bonus.
 

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Badass vegan dinosaur
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Everyone else above has it pretty much right, but in the interest of engaging the final question you have:

If it made a difference to vegans whether or not the animals were raised in modern factory farm or using traditional pre-industrial methods, then eating organic "free range" meat would be acceptable to us—because such animals are usually raised much closer to how they were in the past. Vegans still reject this kind of meat, however, because it still violates the only health concern that matters to us—that of the animal itself.

Whether factory-farmed meat is worse for you than organic free-range locally raised meat is a subject for meat-eaters to discuss amongst themselves and not really anything vegans give a crap about. It's a little like asking whether it's better for your wrists to stab babies with an overhand or underhand motion—it only matters to people who plan on stabbing babies.
 

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Vegan since 1991
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If you are interested in detailed health and ethical discussions about veganism, you might pursue books and videos by these authors:


Books by Tom Regan: http://www.amazon.com/Tom-Regan/e/B000APV6KS


Books by John Robbins: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/184-1022500-6835418?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=john+robbins


Books by John McDougall, MD: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...pbooks,331&rh=n:283155,k:john+mcdougall+books


Videos by Michael Greger, MD: http://nutritionfacts.org/


Surely you must know that the best information will come from published academic sources. I'm rather curious why you're addressing your detailed health questions to us laypersons, especially when you're already aware of books like "The China Study".
 
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I think, meat the way it is consumed by SAD diet is unhealthy. But fish and probably organic meat is healthy in moderate quantities. I think most health problems stem from people eating less veggies and fruits because they eat meat and processed food a lot.
 

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I think, meat the way it is consumed by SAD diet is unhealthy. But fish and probably organic meat is healthy in moderate quantities. I think most health problems stem from people eating less veggies and fruits because they eat meat and processed food a lot.
It can be healthy to humans, but animals are still needlessly dying in the process; that is when vegans abhor.
 

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I was vegan for around 7 or 8 years before hearing about, from somebody, of the doing so for the sake of the animals. I remember thinking of it as being kind-of interesting, I had never put any thought into it at all and was not aware of the factory farm abuse (lived far off the grid at the time). In the sense of doing it for the animals people who hunt or raise their own food humanely would still consider such meat to be ok.
I am an animal lover and the thought of chewing on their flesh quickly, within a few years became an unbelievably disgusting horrendous act because of the spiritual implications of destroying the life of the animals, including wild or humanely domesticated. But the factory farm abuse aspect never took as strong of a hold, though became stronger after reading about it many years later, after about ten years (John Robbins books).
I don't think that the vegan for the sake of the abused animals is a complete and effective reason. The material itself (meat and dairy) is second-hand nutrition - plants chewed on and digested, and that is then mixed with a lot of other bad materials that construct within the body of the animal (along with vitamins and minerals that would be good if not accompanied by the bad materials).
It is very bad to eat for health reasons and that implies to not just physical health but the bad energy of meat is destructive to our spiritual (intellectual -emotional) health also. This has been (health reasons) considered within my strongest reasoning to date and for many years just didn't consider the animal abuse aspect as a strong reason. It is just an additional easy point to make that many people respond to ...although there is a connection in the spiritual love for animals that I had... Later more recently within the last decade I more fully grasped the awful horror of factory farming.
I think that many of the people I have associated with on the rural farm communities are much orientated as vegans for health reasons and in the cities and relatively, the internet, it tends more toward for the animals.
To be honest back when I was 20 if I had been introduced to it for the sake of the animals I would not have responded, my upbringing made me insensitive to that. Raw vegan health in live plants made total sense and that took off with very serious dedicated purpose.
The animal lover thing then combined into that to become much more.
 

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I was vegan for around 7 or 8 years before hearing about, from somebody, of the doing so for the sake of the animals. I remember thinking of it as being kind-of interesting, I had never put any thought into it at all and was not aware of the factory farm abuse (lived far off the grid at the time). In the sense of doing it for the animals people who hunt or raise their own food humanely would still consider such meat to be ok.
I am an animal lover and the thought of chewing on their flesh quickly, within a few years became an unbelievably disgusting horrendous act because of the spiritual implications of destroying the life of the animals, including wild or humanely domesticated. But the factory farm abuse aspect never took as strong of a hold, though became stronger after reading about it many years later, after about ten years (John Robbins books).
I don't think that the vegan for the sake of the abused animals is a complete and effective reason. The material itself (meat and dairy) is second-hand nutrition - plants chewed on and digested, and that is then mixed with a lot of other bad materials that construct within the body of the animal (along with vitamins and minerals that would be good if not accompanied by the bad materials).
It is very bad to eat for health reasons and that implies to not just physical health but the bad energy of meat is destructive to our spiritual (intellectual -emotional) health also. This has been (health reasons) considered within my strongest reasoning to date and for many years just didn't consider the animal abuse aspect as a strong reason. It is just an additional easy point to make that many people respond to ...although there is a connection in the spiritual love for animals that I had... Later more recently within the last decade I more fully grasped the awful horror of factory farming.
I think that many of the people I have associated with on the rural farm communities are much orientated as vegans for health reasons and in the cities and relatively, the internet, it tends more toward for the animals.
To be honest back when I was 20 if I had been introduced to it for the sake of the animals I would not have responded, my upbringing made me insensitive to that. Raw vegan health in live plants made total sense and that took off with very serious dedicated purpose.
The animal lover thing then combined into that to become much more.
If you were eating a plant-based diet for any reason other than animal welfare, you weren't vegan. You were eating a plant-based diet, which is great in and of itself but is distinct from the philosophy of veganism. Vegans, by the way, do not consider hunting or "humane killing" (whatever that is) morally acceptable.
 

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If you were eating a plant-based diet for any reason other than animal welfare, you weren't vegan. You were eating a plant-based diet, which is great in and of itself but is distinct from the philosophy of veganism. Vegans, by the way, do not consider hunting or "humane killing" (whatever that is) morally acceptable.
Is there no word for this ? In French you have vegans (few of them), végétariens (surrender-cheese-eating-monkeys) and végétaliens (those who don't eat animal products but don't systematically veg-proof their clothing/tools).
 

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Is there no word for this ? In French you have vegans (few of them), végétariens (surrender-cheese-eating-monkeys) and végétaliens (those who don't eat animal products but don't systematically veg-proof their clothing/tools).
Really, "plant-based dieter" is the best we've got in English. It's clumsy and it causes a lot of confusion! I think it's important to make a distinction, though, because as healthy as vegan food might be, it isn't a diet. The purpose of veganism is to reduce animal suffering, exploitation, and death. Any health benefits are just welcome perks.
 

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Is there no word for this ? In French you have vegans (few of them), végétariens (surrender-cheese-eating-monkeys) and végétaliens (those who don't eat animal products but don't systematically veg-proof their clothing/tools).

In English we have these terms:

Ethical Vegan: a person who is vegan for primarily ethical reasons

Dietary Vegan: a person who is vegan for primarily health/diet reasons

The same adjectives apply to vegetarians.
 
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In a way it could be looked at like that even when we do it for the animals we are doing it for our health because that also pertains to our spiritual - emotional - intellectual outlook and well-being. ...Are not ethics health oriented?
 
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and (kind of scary) chickens being grown with 2 sets of wings to get more bang for the buck.
Do you really believe that they are growing chickens with 2 sets of wings?

Does the Vegan philosophy believe that meat is bad for you (from a health standpoint) because it has

a) always been bad for human kind since the existence of animals.

or

b) because of the way that animals are raised in meat factories today as I described above.

or

Both

?
I view neither a or b as true. For me there are ethical reasons. Then there are also environmental reasons that have pretty strong scientific support.
 

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the main thing is #1.

i would say #1 is the framework. then you make it work within that framework.

i could design two perfectly healthy diets--one omni, one vegan, and they would both be fine for disease proofing.

if you watch a lot of michael greger md videos he would have you think that veganism means you are bulletproof. this is not so.

vegans still get cancer, heart attacks, type II diabetes, etc. it's just that with most of these there is some risk reduction. not elimination. although you can totally throw this risk reduction down the toilet if you eat a lot of processed foods, refuse to take B12, never eat your vegetables, etc.

having said that it does grieve me that so many vegans are not particularly interested in making healthy choices. there's far too much celebration of vegan junk food and not enough for produce imho.
 

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My opinion is that vegan should encompass both health motivated eaters and ethically motivated eaters. We can differentiate with the pre-fix "ethical". Ethical vegans forgo animal byproducts where as health vegans don't.
Plant based eating just sounds wrong, as if it has nothing to do with excluding meat just that the main staple food is plant food.
 
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