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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Sure, as Vegan activists we could chuck the whole conversation and just say we're doing this one person at a time and I do love that, but simply having the conversation would be great for cross audience exposure as this is the most popular intellectual conversation on the internet anyways so being able to be accurate and insightful should be a priority right? In terms of vegan and non vegan products, vertically integrated beef burgers vs vertically integrated beyond beef burgers is a mathematical thing, private businesses have for decades opted out of additional product for less cost... we're talking about billions of dollars every year and corporations with lots of genius power on executive boards who would not be ignorant to these details... how do you explain that if its not this other narrative? (central planning with the veneer of market competition)

I tried having this debate with Vegan Foot Soldier on his discord but he's "too busy"...
The nature of the economy is relevant to how the world is going to go vegan
My argument is that the economy is fake, start to finish for hundreds of millions of people (billions), it is this centrally planned social control regime...
(aka our strategy as vegan activists should be different if its all-powerful, shadow world oligarchs instead of a decentralized, need-based societal interface)

Vegan Foot Soldier :
centrally planned economy is an economy

Calling something an economy implies its organic and that it follows laws of supply and demand, that its not some centrally planned thing programmed for social control that merely emulates things like supply and demand... profit is suppose to be the motivator and the decisions are suppose to be made at the end points of the network... 10+ million human vending machines in the US would suggest otherwise... labor has a supply and a demand... jobs for the sake of jobs is not a real economy, perhaps if it were only temporary and the government instead of this perpetual thing from private, for profit corporations like walmart but we dont live in that world... also just to be sure its not missed, supply of labor for retail is not only the population of unskilled teenagers or whoever, it also has to take into account the cost of the machines compared to what it would have cost to pay a human a unionized or minimum wage...

Vegan Foot Soldier :
the economy cannot be fake. if it is inefficient it doesn’t make it fake it just means pareto efficiency hasn’t been reached
if vending machines were more profitable than we would use vending machines more often
they are used where they are profitable
in the uk there is a shift to self checkout but many customers do not want to use self checkout
where does consumer choice fit into your vending machine world?

Consumer choice is in the better prices the vending machines would have... its all about the money (especially for the poor, otherwise why is Walmart so successful?), the cost of labor has to impact the price somewhere... the other consumer benefit would be the no more lines thing... aisles of the standard design vending machine would have a cash register thing every 5 ft or something? If it was vending machines on the back of pickup trucks parked on city and neighborhood corners it would be something everybody could walk to from home, it could be updated in the cloud and custom orders and blablabla...

This is not a lack of efficiency, this is a deliberate social control regime, banks and hedge funds and commerce and government and venture capital are all conspiring in this jobs for the sake of jobs paradigm... literally the federal reserve central bank has a mandate to rig the economy in that way... imagine what it would be like if they rigged the economy with the opposite mandate, to minimize employment and maximize leisure

Its also not just that they would be more profitable, its that they're opting out of using vending machines for any profit whatsoever... the vegan retail in downtown... why dont they put a vending machine on the front window so people can have a snack at midnight when the staff aren't there?

They could make the machines out of recycled plastic if they had to maximize the ROI...

Jobs for the sake of jobs is a huge component to it and there are more examples than just vending machines but that's not the only important aspect that you can point to if someone is still coming to terms with the nature of our world (which is perfectly reasonable as there's this total embargo on these ideas from all of the liberal media, which appears to include these celebrity vegans on social media)... Why do we live in a world with 2 wheel bicycles but 4 wheel cars? Do poor people just not want a natural balance with comfortable chair that could recline into a bed while stationary and with a place for your tablet or laptop and blablabla... Imagine how different your childhood would have been, how different of a situation the life of the poor would be, students, cross country athletics, etc.

Everywhere they sell bicycles... Walmart, Target, downtown bicycle shops, etc. why do they not sell computer stations on wheels? Walmart has a 2 wheeler for $150 but the cheapest thing available has to be found online and for more than $1200 (hopefully someone will comment saying they've found something cheaper)... Tricycles could potentially be the solution but that in terms of what I described is still not in the market...

I was told that the black and white was from WW2 paris because the nazi's took the oil for the war and he wanted to still get around, cant find the source but its all a story anyways, wikipedia says the defacto 2 wheel upright design is 150 years or something...
Wheel Tire Photograph Vehicle White

In terms of what is most obvious and accessible to the general public, not sure there's anything better than vending machines (jobs for the sake of jobs) or bicycles (products missing from the market), but another thing you might have noticed is mobile technology... the idea that all of these computers dont have 6 GPIO ports for shift registers is absurd... A shift register (in case you dont know) is a IC that takes a clock, a latch and a register... the clock tells you when to shift, the register is either a 0 or a 1 and the latch is what updates the output, you can daisy chain as many as you need... you need 3 for output and 3 more for input...

Instead of having the GPIO's there's this whole other microcontroller market...
arduino, espruino, raspberry pi, etc

I do love that those nerdy things exist but I also believe there's a way to have nerdy things without them being totally unnecessary contrivances... Microcontrollers are an example of needless products being added to the market to add complexity and barriers to entry

"Open source" code and online tutorials and other blablabla that says they are trying to help you, are often this needlessly difficult thing, it literally takes three lines (one copy paste) and the thing should start to finish work, shell scripts that load other scripts and assign options that you would otherwise have to manually type etc. one copy paste into a terminal or command prompt and the thing should be able to do it... thats the standard, if the person explaining the thing to you wanted to have it be for everybody they would have done that... they are putting you through nonsense

My rough draft app, has the source code integrated, also has some activism stuff, will eventually be updated to my browser extension...

The observations I'm noting here are :

HUMAN VENDING MACHINES Jobs for the sake of Jobs
BICYCLES Products missing from the market
MICROCONTROLLERS Deliberately dysfunctional products added to the market
SOFTWARE Deliberately difficult gas lighting

I am trying to imply there are a lot more instances with the same principles (there are probably more principles but this covers A LOT)... If it turns out I'm right, that we're living in an abusive social control regime, what our strategy is as vegan activists should be different than if we were living in the other world narrative...

Anarchism is zero, then its gradients of Minarchism until you get 100% Minarchism which is Capitalism, then its gradients of Socialism until you get to 100% which is Communism... this is all the definition of the State, whenever its less than 100% the rest of the % is private

I call myself a "steps to anarchism" type of person... aka imagine there was a political party that came up with a 50 year plan where in 50 years we would be in a peaceful anarchy... the steps from here to there would be labeled as socialism but I'd argue my ideas are sufficiently different in that they would truly solve problems whereas a lot of the political left deliberately try to not solve problems in order to consolidate power...

In terms of the perspective of a bank or an investor, if there are two businesses side by side trying to get money, one of them is trying to do it with a staff, the other is trying with robotics , the robotics is ALWAYS more attractive because if the business fails, you can sell the robots and get your investment back whereas if you pay employees, that money is sunk... dont they say statistically most businesses fail? Robotics is like software, once they figure out google then we can all have google, once they figure out the best ABB robotic arm then we could all literally have the best (we cant all have the best law firm, aka its sufficiently different)...

Industrial Robotic Car Wash while people are still making tacos at tacobell...


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