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<span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">The more I think about it, the more I dislike the term "Angry Vegan", as it conflates two different concepts.</span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">The first is that of a vegan who is rude and condescending.</span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">The second is that of a vegan is who is "angry" about the fact that animals are being tortured.</span></span><br><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">I would think that every decent human being would fit into the second category, provided they know what is going on.</span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">However, falling into the second type of "angry vegan" does not imply falling into the first.</span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">I think there are a number of people who are so concerned about not being the proverbial "angry vegan", that they feel that they essentially have to tell people that they really don't care whether or not others eat meat, and that it is just a personal choice.</span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">In doing so, they reinforce the very notion which we should be trying to dispel.</span></span><br><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">-Eugene<br></span></span>
 

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i agree. which is why i tend to get into heated discussions with people because i don't want to take their crap. then i get called that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
<span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">I think that if the discussion becomes heated, then I think this starts to fall more into the category of the first type of angry vegan, which is to be avoided.</span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">The goal, I believe, is to have the discussion without it becoming personal.</span></span>
 

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it becomes heated because the omni is rude and condescending. i am courteous and polite and honest, because i want to make an impact. when i start to become upset and i know it is leading down a bad path, i end the discussion.
 

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this actually reminds me of something. i used to have a lot of those convos with my boss. eventually i politely told him i didn't want to talk to him about food anymore, because he never has anything constructive, positive or nice to say about my personal choice of diet/lifestyle. today i gave him some wafers from the vending machine because they weren't vegan and he said "well it's a good thing you care so much about what you eat." needless to say, i was shocked. and pleased. then we went on to have a fun conversation about requesting more items from the vendor so i can have snacks. torward the end he joked that he was going to tell him to put lard on everything, so i would have to pay for all these snacks then give them to him. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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I've been hanging out on another forum which is not veg'n but it has a lifestyle section which includes veg'n threads and always, meat eaters are coming there, simply to tell those of us who are veg'n that we're wrong. I'm usually the most outspoken there, long, loooooonnnnng debates, and I've finally learned to be polite always, but until recently most of the m.e.(meat eaters) have been condescending and openly rude. It's not like they have to even come to those threads, they don't work with us, live with us, know us on a personal basis......I think some m.e.'s just love to fight! Maybe it is the adrenaline that was pumping through the poor animals just before they died, that makes people more aggressive?<br><br>
What is infuriating to is when they actually lie about how you are communicating, saying that you're using gory details, etc., when all you suggested to someone who is beginning to think about change, that they should Google some search words like 'animal transport, pig abuse, dairy slaughter........yep, certainly 'gory' words!<br><br>
I came across one site where the guy was defending his 'paleo' diet, and in the comments, a couple people, including the OP, were downright vile, telling a vegan who had commented (pretty politely too I might add) to f*** off and other niceties. When I mentioned it on the forum, one guy defends him, saying he could understand the guys reaction because "he must get it all the time and it must drive him crazy". I pointed out that I 'get it all the time, from the (other side) and if I used the same kind of language, everyone on 'our' forum would be up-in-arms over my-over-the -top rudeness and I just wouldn't get away with it.<br><br>
I think they say these things in an effort to make us look bad because it makes it easier to dismiss us as cranks.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2959221"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
The goal, I believe, is to have the discussion without it becoming personal.</div>
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The goal, I believe, is to become the 'facilitator' of a discussion in which the meat eater ends up arguing with him or her self.<br><br>
Not at all difficult to do that. Meat eaters are a powder keg of contradictory moral values that are painfully easy to exploit.
 

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Are there any vegans who don't fit into the "morally outraged" definition of an angry vegan?<br><br>
To be honest, I have backed off before so as not to confirm the angry vegan stereotype but mainly because it's been my experience that reinforcing peoples' prejudices by getting aggressive or confrontational is counter-productive, even if they've already become antagonistic. Confirming someone's suspicion that you're a "radical" ensures that they're never going to take anything you say seriously.<br><br>
So I don't think you have to be at either the hopping-mad or the overly-apologetic end of the spectrum or that either extreme is particularly helpful. I also disagree with your premise that only vegans can be decent people though so I maybe I'm coming at this from a different angle altogether <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/huh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":confused:">
 

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I think most vegans get labelled as 'angry' or 'preaching' or 'intolerant' as soon as they mention that they are a vegan. Omnis defenses go up, as their definition of a vegan is someone who is judgemental about other people's food choices.<br><br>
I used to go with the 'personal choice' argument to diffuse the omnivore's hostility. These days, I don't - the article linked to below, by Ari Solomon, made me realise that omnis love the personal choice argument purely because it makes them feel better about eating animals. That doesn't mean that we should give it to them, for the sake of peace.<br><br><i>Now, you may try to argue that eating animals is a matter of personal opinion or choice, but again I'd have to disagree -- this is not about your opinion versus my opinion, this is about animal suffering. You can't discuss your "personal choice" of eating animals while leaving animals completely out of the conversation.</i><br><br><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ari-solomon/who-you-callin-vegangelic_b_290582.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ari-so..._b_290582.html</a><br><br>
It is extremely difficult to remain calm and unruffled when the other side is using sarcasm and cutting remarks against you and your food choices - it is far easier to respond in kind. But then this just reinforces their 'angry vegan' stereotype (they fail to see that they are being an 'angry omnivore'!)<br><br>
The answer is to remain calm, and be prepared with answers for their arguments if you want to remain the cool-headed one. Or just refuse to discuss it at all.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Snafu</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2959478"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
reinforcing peoples' prejudices by getting aggressive or confrontational is counter-productive, even if they've already become antagonistic. Confirming someone's suspicion that you're a "radical" ensures that they're never going to take anything you say seriously.</div>
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Trouble is though, that it's not just the tone of our discussion that's perceived as confrontational or radical, it's the entire concept. People who eat, wear, and otherwise exploit animal often feel judged and become defensive at the mere presense of a vegan or vegetarian. We are, as Carol J Adams says, the absent referent. We remind people to question their ethics; our simple existence encourages reflection about animals rights.<br><br>
We can and should strive to use an effective tone when conversing with nonveg*ns: calm, educated, respectful. But we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking tone is what matters most. It's not our tone that's the thing that keeps nonveg*ns from going vegan, it's the dominant animal-exploiting culture.<br><br>
I've noticed quite a lot of blame in the AR movement wherein various fractions blame other fractions for their alleged ineffectiveness or counter-productiveness, yet I see no solid proof of any claims of ineffectiveness or counter-productiveness. WE are not the problem; the problem is the animal-exploiters and the culture that supports animal exploitation!
 

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I refuse to argue with anyone about veganism. If they are hostile towards you, you are NOT going to persuade them of anything. In those cases, I do just say it's a personal choice. If they are asking questions about veganism, then that implies they are curious/interested. In those situations, I explain how animals are kept in horrible conditions to extract their produce. No need to get angry or propel the stereotype that vegans are angry. Just handle the situation according to how the other person is acting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2959495"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Trouble is though, that it's not just the tone of our discussion that's perceived as confrontational or radical, it's the entire concept. People who eat, wear, and otherwise exploit animal often feel judged and become defensive at the mere presense of a vegan or vegetarian. We are, as Carol J Adams says, the absent referent. We remind people to question their ethics; our simple existence encourages reflection about animals rights.<br><br>
We can and should strive to use an effective tone when conversing with nonveg*ns: calm, educated, respectful. But we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking tone is what matters most. It's not our tone that's the thing that keeps nonveg*ns from going vegan, it's the dominant animal-exploiting culture.<br><br>
I've noticed quite a lot of blame in the AR movement wherein various fractions blame other fractions for their alleged ineffectiveness or counter-productiveness, yet I see no solid proof of any claims of ineffectiveness or counter-productiveness. WE are not the problem; the problem is the animal-exploiters and the culture that supports animal exploitation!</div>
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<br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">Perhaps "hostility" is in the eye of the beholder. As far as I am concerned, I never get hostile comments from meat eaters, whether it be from coworkers or people in the street when I am leafleting. But then, I don't consider jokes or questions about veganism to be forms of hostility. I think that the problem is that many vegans might take offense when none was intended.</span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">And while I might agree that primary reason people continue to eat meat is because of the culture we are in, the behavior of vegans does make an impact, for better or for worse. For example, I think PETA's behavior over the decades has made it significantly harder for vegans and vegetarians to be taken seriously. Often, it is only after I finally convince someone that I have no affiliation with PETA that they are finally willing to have a conversation with me about the issues, and listen to what I have to say.</span></span>
 

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I'm vegan, and I'm angry. I'm angry because I can't even say the word "vegan" to anyone anymore. Heck, even if I DON'T say it, people get so offended. People know I am vegan, and all I can do is just sit there and keep my mouth shut as they bad mouth me because they don't believe one word that comes out of my mouth. It hurts so much, and I think that's why people are angry.<br><br>
I don't even want to convert people to become vegan (even though it'd be nice,) but I just want to open up people's minds about it so they know that being vegan is not a crime or sin.<br><br>
I was going to enter a scholarship contest promoting vegetarianism/veganism, but I don't know how to do that without offending anyone <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/blank.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":|"> I get made fun of so much by just eating a celery stick, it's awful. I'd have to say it's not our fault that some of us are angry, it's the people who ridicule us that make us angry. I know we shouldn't let people make us mad, but the fact that they can speak their mind and I can't just pisses me off.
 

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For me, the "angry vegan" isn't necessarily what's being described here, but rather the person with whom every single conversation becomes about veganism, and then very negative. Being angry at animal suffering is pretty common amongst vegans, but for some, I think the anger takes over their lives.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2959541"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">Perhaps "hostility" is in the eye of the beholder. As far as I am concerned, I never get hostile comments from meat eaters, whether it be from coworkers or people in the street when I am leafleting. But then, I don't consider jokes or questions about veganism to be forms of hostility. I think that the problem is that many vegans might take offense when none was intended.</span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial;"><span style="font-size:small;">And while I might agree that primary reason people continue to eat meat is because of the culture we are in, the behavior of vegans does make an impact, for better or for worse. For example, I think PETA's behavior over the decades has made it significantly harder for vegans and vegetarians to be taken seriously. Often, it is only after I finally convince someone that I have no affiliation with PETA that they are finally willing to have a conversation with me about the issues, and listen to what I have to say.</span></span></div>
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You have a valid point here. For those of us who have experienced some hostility, especially when first going vegan, the expectation is set that every joke or question is seen to come from a hostile pov. If we can learn to respond openly and honestly, without sarcasm or anger, even to what we see as stupid questions or remarks, chances are that any hostility (perceived or otherwise) will be diffused.<br><br>
Sometimes we need to remember that is important to extend our compassion and understanding to the human animal as well as the non-human ones.
 

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I've had many conversations about veganism open with rude or critical remarks from omni's (not jokes, which I try to roll with) and so sometimes it can be very hard not to become that 'angry, preachy vegan' in response to their rude comments. I do try though. Of course I'm upset about the way most animals are treated, but I would call that emotion closer to sadness or pity than anger. I've found that the best thing I can do is to smile and just be <i>extra</i> nice. It's amazing how kindness can defuse bad situations and sometimes even make people more willing to talk instead of argue.
 

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It's outright absurd to claim that there is no hostility towards veg*ns. Some people are mean. That's a simple fact of life. Some of the mean people pick on veg*ns. That too is a simple fact of life. Are they the majority? No. Most nonveg*ns are pretty nice actually. But mean people do exist.<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2959541"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Perhaps "hostility" is in the eye of the beholder. As far as I am concerned, I never get hostile comments from meat eaters</div>
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Your experiences are not the end all and be all of all that exists.<br><br>
I'm just guessing, but you've never been a vegan or vegetarian in a situation where you literatally depended upon other people's kindness in order to obtain food. For example, you haven't been a veg*n as a child or a patient at a hospital or imprisoned, am I right? Because I think if you had an experience of that nature - where you don't have all the privileges you have now - you would recognize true hostility towards veg*nism.<br><br>
There <i>are</i> some people who simply don't care about animals, the environment, public health, or vegans. They say and do things that are outright cruel and hostile. Pretending those people don't exist doesn't help anyone, Eugene. You said:<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Eugene</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2959541"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think that the problem is that many vegans might take offense when none was intended.</div>
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Like I said before, I think there are good ways to deal with those people and there are poor ways. But that's not to say we shouldn't be offended by offensive things. For example, plenty of people say sexist or racist things and they don't "intend" to offend. But their intentions aren't the only issue. The issue is that some things are just plain offensive. Eating animals in this day and age - when we have plenty of other options and when doing so causes <a href="http://www.meatvideo.com/" target="_blank">tremendous suffering to animals</a> and <a href="http://www.vegansoapbox.com/11-articles-about-meat-the-environment/" target="_blank">damage to the planet</a> as well as to <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s74YzDv1xFA" target="_blank">public health</a> and <a href="http://www.cancerproject.org/" target="_blank">individual humans' health</a> - IS offensive.<br><br>
Again, vegans are not the problem. The problem is the dominant animal-exploiting culture.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ElaineV</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2961537"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Again, vegans are not the problem. The problem is the dominant animal-exploiting culture.</div>
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But not necessarily the people who are embedded in that culture. I find that if I react to hostility with more hostility, it continues. Whereas if I react to it with compassion and kindness for that person (no matter how mean they are, and I agree there are mean people out there) it tends to diffuse. Or they end up blustering away at me, and not getting any anger back, which just makes them look bad.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>angie54321</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2961548"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
But not necessarily the people who are embedded in that culture. I find that if I react to hostility with more hostility, it continues. Whereas if I react to it with compassion and kindness for that person (no matter how mean they are, and I agree there are mean people out there) it tends to diffuse. Or they end up blustering away at me, and not getting any anger back, which just makes them look bad.</div>
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The problem is that, unless you are so super-concillatory as to side-step the conversation altogether, you WILL be perceived as being hostile, preachy or whatever. They may not say it to your face, but anything you say will be taken as an aggressive attempt to convert them - depending on your personal relationship, is how "hostile" they perceive you.<br><br>
Basically, you will look bad (from "Oh, luxdancer and her restrictive lifestyle, I applaud her integrity but I could never live like that" to "That luxdancer is a crazy extremist and she's so angry and hostile and preachy") to them no matter what, just varying degrees of "bad".<br><br>
I literally cannot say *anything* about veg*nism without a meat-eater saying something snarky. Other than, maybe, "these cupcakes are vegan". Fortunately, unlike some people, I've never had anyone refuse my food because it doesn't have meat so I guess that I'm lucky that way... I think?
 

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Do angry vegans fling themselves at green pigs for eating eggs? Because I think slingshotting yourself into a pig isn't a very vegan thing to do.
 
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