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Here's a piece by the founder of the GLBT Activist Organization, OutRage:<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.labourfriendsofiraq.org.uk/archives/000081.html" target="_blank">The Left’s Retreat from Universal Human Rights</a>
 

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I'm a leftist and I guess my problem with this sort of article is that it seems to assume that (I guess as americans, britons) have the right or the responsibility to interfere in the matters of soverien governments. I think this is definitely a gray area for me as a leftist. One of the problems in the US is that we seem to not understand or respect the distinct boundaries of other nations. also I think we interfere in matters of other countries when it has a direct impact on our own welfare (wars over oil). I do think we need to take into account at least that we have little cultural understanding in many areas. does that mean we should ignore human rights violations where they occur? No....it does mean though that there needs to be consensus among nations...it means we need to figure out how to best proceed in areas we may not understand (Ie religious conflicts that have been taking place for a very very very long time). and that we should not just expect other countries to want or approve of our own way of life. the Us commits human rights violations. so to me it's sort of like that biblical saying....where you can't really take the pencil shaving out of your neighbor's eye, if you've got a big honking two by four stuck in yours (paraphrased).<br><br><br><br>
I don't tend to see the answer as needing to change human rights violations occuring in other countries....but to change the human rights violations occuring within our own borders or because of our own government. I kinda think that would be a good place to start. Like for instance, the US government has a problem with other countries posessing weapons of mass distruction on the grounds that these countries may use said weapons. However, WE posess and use weapons of mass distruction....so what are ya going to do?<br><br><br><br>
b (stands for babbling today)
 

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I think it's easier for the left in the West to criticise human rights violations by the USA and European countries because of what bethanie mentioned; the biblical idea that it's bad manners to criticise others when you're far from perfect yourself. (I don't agree with this attitude myself, though.)<br><br><br><br>
Also, I don't see how "the left" is supporting conservative or fundamentalist muslims.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">The STWCs failure to support the democratic and left opposition to Saddam ranks as one of the great moral failures of our era.</div>
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The aim of Stop The War Coalition (StWC) is to stop the so-called war against "terrorism". Its aims are not to save the environment, ban whaling, remove dictators or end persecution of gay people, although those are indeed good and noble causes. Therefore I feel that the criticism above is somewhat unfair.<br><br><br><br>
As for Jamaica, it's not just the government or certain reggea singers who give gays & lesbians a hard time. The whole society is very anti-gay, much thanks to their old-testament religion. Which also means that in addition to gays, catholics are also being heavily targeted.<br><br><br><br>
When is OutRage going to speak out against persecution of catholics on Jamaica?
 

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Far be it for me to defend the left, but...<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Verdant</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Over 100 million young girls in Africa and the Middle East have had their clitorises excised and / or their vaginas sown up. We would not tolerate this patriarchal abuse in Britain. Why should we tolerate it in other countries? Female genital mutilation is a crime against humanity. Dont we have a duty of international solidarity with the victims?</div>
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And do what about them? Seriously?
 

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Well it comes down to seeing that the rhetoric of universal human rights has originated from a particular time and place (the West) and is thereby inapplicable outside that context.<br><br><br><br>
One point made against this kind of attitude is that when everything is relativized to culture, it is usually the oppressive elite in a country that gets to represent that culture, so Western intellectuals play directly in <i>their</i> hands. From what I've read, an important question in the debate is therefore how to define 'culture'.
 
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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Over 100 million young girls in Africa and the Middle East have had their clitorises excised and / or their vaginas sown up. We would not tolerate this patriarchal abuse in Britain. Why should we tolerate it in other countries? Female genital mutilation is a crime against humanity. Don’t we have a duty of international solidarity with the victims?</div>
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not saying its right, or the same thing, but little boys genitals are routinely mutilated in america for the sake of perceived cultural norms, aren't they? what are the circumcision rates there? now i'm thinking about it, what about ear peircing on babies and small children? thats a common western practice. i veiw that as assault too.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>hoodedclawjen</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
not saying its right, or the same thing, but little boys genitals are routinely mutilated in america for the sake of perceived cultural norms, aren't they? what are the circumcision rates there? now i'm thinking about it, what about ear peircing on babies and small children? thats a common western practice. i veiw that as assault too.</div>
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you aid the violent when you cheapen the word "assault". cheap moral equivalence, the responses are so predictable. There is a difference, I'm sure we can find some study that counts the difference in nerve endings or something.<br><br><br><br>
I view overabundent use of paprika as assault <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/dizzy2.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":dizzy:"><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Vidkun Quisling</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
The whole society is very anti-gay, much thanks to their <b>old-testament religion</b>. Which also means that in addition to gays, catholics are also being heavily targeted.</div>
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are you going to turn this into another rant against the Jooooos?<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.jamaicancaves.org/boom-bye-bye-lyrics.html" target="_blank">http://www.jamaicancaves.org/boom-bye-bye-lyrics.html</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Well it comes down to seeing that the rhetoric of universal human rights has originated from a particular time and place (the West) and is thereby inapplicable outside that context.</div>
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I have to agree.<br><br><br><br>
Without the vast riches and power found in the west, and the associated comforts, we could not afford to care about human rights.<br><br><br><br>
From the Article<br><br><br><br>
"much of the left is reluctant to speak out against human rights violations perpetrated by people who happen to be non-white"<br><br><br><br>
So finally Political Correctness bites itself in the ass. We care so much we have to stop caring.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>otomik</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
are you going to turn this into another rant against the Jooooos?</div>
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Come on, I didn't even mention them. I was referring to their many fundamentalist and oppressive churches/religions:<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">From an early age we are taught that to be anything other than heterosexual is evil, sinful, corrupt, and that we are destined to burn in the fires of hell for all eternity.<br><br><br><br>
This kind of rejection by our churches and our communities is very damaging to our spirits. Many people internalise this message and it takes a lot of strength and courage to reject this way of thinking, especially when the fundamentalists have armed themselves with quote after quote from the bible to justify their bigotry. Fundamentalist Christian churches dominate the spiritual landscape in Jamaica, making it difficult for people to explore alternative thinking on homosexuality.</div>
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<br><a href="http://www.jflag.org/bodyspirit/religion.htm" target="_blank">http://www.jflag.org/bodyspirit/religion.htm</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>hoodedclawjen</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
not saying its right, or the same thing, but little boys genitals are routinely mutilated in america for the sake of perceived cultural norms, aren't they? what are the circumcision rates there? now i'm thinking about it, what about ear peircing on babies and small children? thats a common western practice. i veiw that as assault too.</div>
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You certainly could percieve male circumcision and ear piercings as assault, and I am personally against all of those things in children, but there is also a matter of degree here (related to pain and danger involved in the procedure).<br><br>
Female circumcision is, IMHO, by far the worst of the things mentioned, in terms of medical risks (including infection, scarring, disease and infertility)pain and lasting consequences.<br><br><b>Warning: Graphic info to follow:</b><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Female circumcision is by far the worst of the things mentioned. There are several different kinds.<br><br>
1) Clitoridectomy- which is a clitoral excision. That's right- removing all or part of the clitoris. This is considered a human rights violation by the United Nations.<br><br><br><br>
2) Clitorodotomy- the removal or spitting of the clitoral hood. This is the most analagous to male circumcision. This practice often includes the partial or full removal of the clitoris as well.<br><br><br><br>
3) Infibulation- Part the labia majora and part or all of the labia minora are removed and the remaining tissue is stitched together, leaving a pencil thin opening for urine and blood to pass. The opening is too small to allow for intercourse, so before that, it must be opened before it is attempted. It also must be completly cut open before childbirth (and is typically redone afterwards).<br><br><br><br>
All of these procedures dramatically affect the reproductive health of women, and remove the potential for sexual pleasure.<br><br>
They also tend to be done is less than sterile conditions, without the use of anesthetics.<br><br><br><br>
I do see these as being violations of universal human rights, and so most women, including those who have had it done to them.<br><br>
I think it is an assault that is not in the same category as 'ear piercing'.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>otomik</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.jamaicancaves.org/boom-bye-bye-lyrics.html" target="_blank">http://www.jamaicancaves.org/boom-bye-bye-lyrics.html</a></div>
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I'd like to see this translated into standard English. It seemed kind of obscure to me.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Joe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I'd like to see this translated into standard English. It seemed kind of obscure to me.</div>
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According to what I've read, "batty bwoy" and "batty man" = homosexual. I'm guessing everything "batty" has to do with homosexuals...
 

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man, nobody here seen Ali G?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>otomik</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
man, nobody here seen Ali G?</div>
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Da West Staines Massive, BOYAKASHA!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Indian Summer</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
According to what I've read, "batty bwoy" and "batty man" = homosexual. I'm guessing everything "batty" has to do with homosexuals...</div>
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You're right. But I had never heard nor seen this expression before.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">batty \t Adj. Crazy, eccentric.<br><br>
Noun. Buttocks, bottom. [Orig. W.I.]<br><br>
batty boy \tNoun. A homosexual male. From batty meaning buttocks. Also battyboy, battyman. Derog. [Orig. West Indies]<br><br>
batty bwoy \tNoun. See 'batty boy'. Also batty-bway.<br><br>
batty crease \tNoun. The area between the buttocks. See 'batty' (noun).<br><br>
batty man \tNoun. See 'batty boy'. Also battyman.</div>
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<br><br><br><a href="http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/b.htm" target="_blank">http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/b.htm</a><br><br><br><br>
There's even a Wikipedia article on the subject.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batty_boy" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batty_boy</a><br><br><br><br>
One of the participants in the discussion said that the song "Was banned in many places," but I have no further information on that.
 
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