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<a href="http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news%2Flocal%2Flos_angeles&id=8060336" target="_blank">http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...les&id=8060336</a><br><br>
This is a very even handed piece.<br><br>
On the one hand, what is being described in the first half is atrocious and needs to be stopped. I'm glad people are trying to make that happen.<br><br>
On the other hand:<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Protest tactics are changing. Activists are now taking their fight away from university labs and directly to the homes of researchers.<br>
Jentsch's car was fire bombed, he lives with around-the-clock security and faces regular protests and threats.<br>
"I've received razor blades sent to me in the mail with threats to cut my throat," he said.<br>
Dr. Dario Ringach used to experiment on animals at UCLA, but that changed when activists threatened his young children.</div>
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Being crazy psychos and threatening to kill some guys children? NOT COOL.<br><br>
Apparently Nietzsche was right about people who stare into the abyss for too long...
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Werewolf Girl</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858629"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
On the one hand, what is being described in the first half is atrocious and needs to be stopped. I'm glad people are trying to make that happen.</div>
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The only reason why those atrocities are even being brought to light so that you're reading about them is because of those radical activists that you criticize. I'm certainly not saying that activists or tactics are above criticism - those aren't the kinds of tactics I would use - but the question must be asked: what are those who are criticizing doing for those animals in labs? Even Gandhi felt that, while it was best to be nonviolent, it was better to be violent than to do nothing - which is what pretty much everyone else is doing.<br><br>
Unfortunately, history has shown that the only thing that has gotten researchers to quit are aggressive tactics:
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Ringach eventually sent an email to the activists with the title "You win." He gave up animal research.</div>
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I'm not sorry he stopped torturing monkeys.<br><br>
I also wonder how people would feel if German resisters had used those tactics against Nazis who were shipping people off to concentration camps to be tortured in experiments?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858640"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
The only reason why those atrocities are even being brought to light so that you're reading about them is because of those radical activists that you criticize. I'm certainly not saying that activists or tactics are above criticism - those aren't the kinds of tactics I would use - but the question must be asked: what are those who are criticizing doing for those animals in labs? Even Gandhi felt that, while it was best to be nonviolent, it was better to be violent than to do nothing - which is what pretty much everyone else is doing.<br><br>
Unfortunately, history has shown that the only thing that has gotten researchers to quit are aggressive tactics: I'm not sorry he stopped torturing monkeys.<br><br>
I also wonder how people would feel if German resisters had used those tactics against Nazis who were shipping people off to concentration camps to be tortured in experiments?</div>
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I would feel the same, I don't see how threatening to kill someones children or blowing up their car is EVER okay. There's no point in fighting monsters only to become one yourself.
 

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I think people are unable to imagine themselves and those they love in the place of the true victims and what it really means to be in a lab being tortured and killed.<br><br>
While they aren't tactics I would ever use, I wouldn't consider property damage or even a threat in the same universe as what is done to the victims dying in those labs.<br><br>
Curious what you think of self defense or the defense of innocent others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858646"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think people are unable to imagine themselves and those they love in the place of the true victims and what it really means to be in a lab being tortured and killed.<br><br>
While they aren't tactics I would ever use, I wouldn't consider property damage or even a threat in the same universe as what is done to the victims dying in those labs.<br><br>
Curious what you think of self defense or the defense of innocent others.</div>
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It depends on whether you mean self defense or "self defense" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/inquisitive.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":stinkeye:"><br><br>
If someone tries to kill me I'll try to not die, but I wouldn't threaten to kill their kids that's for sure.
 

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If a person was going to stomp on a puppy right in front of you, how far should you go to stop them? Should you not torch their car, if it would save the puppy? Should you not threaten to hurt their children, if it would save the puppy?<br><br>
I honestly don't know.<br><br>
I do know that most of my sympathy lies with the activists and the animals, though. Some of the stuff that happens in those labs, makes the meat industry look very mild.
 

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Irazary, WereWoldGirl, and Delicioso, you all make good points. I'm not sure where I stand on this. But I'm happy it's at least getting results.
 

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Violent direct action is something I entirely support when it's property damage. I am uncomfortable with the threats on people's lives, etc, but I think those receive an unfairly large amount of press. Burning down a building, smashing up a car, anything like that works, and raises no ethical implications.<br><br>
I do, however, think that Irizary raises a great point in that we have difficulty imagining ourselves in the place of the animals in these situations.
 

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I'd like to see actual evidence of this so-called "increase" in violence.<br><br>
I think the thing that is increasing is the media and political pressure on activists to silence themselves, which itself could be called violence.<br>
See more on that here: <a href="http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/green-scare/" target="_blank">http://www.greenisthenewred.com/blog/green-scare/</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>RunnerVeggie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858817"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
People who threaten other people's lives, no matter how "righteous" their motivation, are not activists. They are terrorists.</div>
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Just people? Because I hope you then consider vivisectors, lab workers, farmers, and others who literally torture and kill others - which goes far beyond a threat - "terrorists" too. And add soldiers to your list. And many Nazi resisters.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kappa</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858795"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Violent direct action is something I entirely support when it's property damage. I am uncomfortable with the threats on people's lives, etc, but I think those receive an unfairly large amount of press. Burning down a building, smashing up a car, anything like that works, and raises no ethical implications.</div>
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I agree. There are times when protesting just does not work. Animal vivisection seems to be one of them.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Werewolf Girl</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858629"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Being crazy psychos and threatening to kill some guys children? NOT COOL.<br><br>
Apparently Nietzsche was right about people who stare into the abyss for too long...</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:"><br><br>
Fighting injustice with more injustice never works. The means of change need to be consistent with the ends of change.
 

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I think that people who disagree with these tactics need to read "Muzzling a Movement" and "Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?". They each shed light on how government has vilified those who fight to liberate animals from cruel situations.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kappa</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858795"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Burning down a building, smashing up a car, anything like that works, and raises no ethical implications.</div>
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How are any of these things justifiable when those acts may indirectly threaten people's lives?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2859177"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think that people who disagree with these tactics need to read "Muzzling a Movement" and "Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?". They each shed light on how government has vilified those who fight to liberate animals from cruel situations.</div>
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I don't deny that the government has, of course, specifically targeted AR groups with terrorism rhetoric... but still, nonviolent direct action is much more effective than violent direction action.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Rotoshave</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2859180"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
How are any of these things justifiable when those acts may indirectly threaten people's lives?</div>
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What do you mean by this? How does smashing a car indirectly threaten someone's life?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kappa</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2858795"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I do, however, think that Irizary raises a great point in that we have difficulty imagining ourselves in the place of the animals in these situations.</div>
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Yes. Imagine you and your entire family are being held captive and literally tortured into death. Maybe you've been there since birth where you were ripped away from your mother. Every day is boredom and pain. You rip out your fur and flip in and pace your cage. You've never even seen the light of day or moved freely outside your small, barren cage.<br><br>
"Oh no, no. Don't hurt any of the property of my captors! That would make you into a monster <i>just as bad as my captors.</i> And no idle threats to anyone on my behalf either. That's just wrong. I'll just listen to my child in the next room cry in fear and pain until they die and hope that that letter writing campaign works out before I'm killed too."
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2859192"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Yes. Imagine you and your entire family are being held captive and literally tortured into death. Maybe you've been there since birth where you were ripped away from your mother. Every day is boredom and pain. You rip out your fur and flip in and pace your cage. You've never even seen the light of day or moved freely outside your small, barren cage.<br><br>
"Oh no, no. Don't hurt any of the property of my captors! That would make you into a monster <i>just as bad as my captors.</i> And no idle threats to anyone on my behalf either. That's just wrong. I'll just listen to my child in the next room cry in fear and pain until they die and hope that that letter writing campaign works out before I'm killed too."</div>
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*standing ovation*
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>sequoia</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2859187"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
What do you mean by this? How does smashing a car indirectly threaten someone's life?</div>
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People rely on property to get to jobs, to keep them off the streets, to secure them from poverty. Perhaps the destruction of a car will directly result in someone being homeless. As for the building, that is obvious.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Irizary</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2859192"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Yes. Imagine you and your entire family are being held captive and literally tortured into death. Maybe you've been there since birth where you were ripped away from your mother. Every day is boredom and pain. You rip out your fur and flip in and pace your cage. You've never even seen the light of day or moved freely outside your small, barren cage.<br><br>
"Oh no, no. Don't hurt any of the property of my captors! That would make you into a monster <i>just as bad as my captors.</i> And no idle threats to anyone on my behalf either. That's just wrong. I'll just listen to my child in the next room cry in fear and pain until they die and hope that that letter writing campaign works out before I'm killed too."</div>
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That's all good... but when change happens one usually needs the momentum of popular outrage to enact that change. And one will not get that popular anger by being violent. One needs to maintain the moral high ground.
 
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