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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>skylark</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><b>I thought the idea was to attract as many vegans as possible</b>, which would probably mean using the techniques that reel in lots of people.</div>
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(Emphasis added.)<br><br><br><br>
I think that this is more than a bit naive. Witness the behavior of many people in condemning and castigating others and I think <span style="text-decoration:underline;">the idea</span> that this condemning and castigation is either (a) for the benefit of these others or (b) rationally calculated to best promote the the veg*n cause--well, that idea is dubious as far as I am concerned. Much of this behavior IMO derives from some sort of psychological enjoyment of inflicting (psychological) pain on others. It's a type of psychological sadism, really, as far as I am concerned. It's guilt-mongering and shame-mongering that is really no different from that practiced by various "fundamentalist" adherents of religious groups. Whatever harm or injury is inflicted on the "targets" of such behavior is either never consciously considered, or rationalized as being necessary to the Just Cause, or even rationalized as being beneficial to the person targeted.<br><br><br><br>
Thankfully, only a minority of veg*ns practice such behaviors. Unfortunately, I think this minority is far more prevalent on discussion boards and on the internet than it is in real life.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>skylark</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I thought the idea was to attract as many vegans as possible,</div>
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the idea is to save as many animals as possible.<br><br>
If this was about being seeker friendly, we would consider honey to be vegan, and free range eggs, and fish and... oh wait.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>troub</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
the idea is to save as many animals as possible.<br><br>
If this was about being seeker friendly, we would consider honey to be vegan, and free range eggs, and fish and... oh wait.</div>
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But wouldn't being seeker-friendly mean saving more animals?<br><br><br><br>
I'm not saying seeker-friendly means allowing the vegan lifestyle to be interpreted in a more broad sense, but rather not using the "vinegar" technique 100% of the time for everyone you come into contact with. i.e. not being a jerk.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>veggiejanie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
But wouldn't being seeker-friendly mean saving more animals?</div>
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Well one has to find a balance. If you make it too seeker-friendly - by saying something like "you can respect animal rights if you eat fish 'cos fish don't have feelings anyway, yay come join us!11" - you will trivialize your message and cannot create any change. But on the other hand I don't believe that the "strict" interpretation of veganism is needed to advance animal rights ideas and to ensure that the message doesn't get watered down.
 

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That's why, re:honey, I wouldn't attack someone who was otherwise vegan and ate honey but would focus on what kind of ideas he/she supports etc. (But like I've also said, I don't consider honey a vegan product and the vegan symbol will be featured in products containing honey only over my dead body.)
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Well one has to find a balance. If you make it too seeker-friendly - by saying something like "you can respect animal rights if you eat fish 'cos fish don't have feelings anyway, yay come join us!11" - you will trivialize your message and cannot create any change. But on the other hand I don't believe that the "strict" interpretation of veganism is needed to advance animal rights ideas and to ensure that the message doesn't get watered down.</div>
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..that's why I said..."I'm not saying seeker-friendly means allowing the vegan lifestyle to be interpreted in a more broad sense,"<br><br><br><br>
I meant, let's just be nice (maple syrup) instead of being mean (vinegar) when trying to attract more vegans and save more animals.
 

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The analogy of vinegar is problematic btw. Vinegar is needed in life just like maple syrup is, and so by this analogy we would also need the more confrontational approach because for one its effects may linger longer (say "linger longer" many times in a row) in people's minds. Just some time ago, I put beetroot pieces in a sauce with vinegar <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:">
 

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I would still like to know what specific brands of vinegar prompted the OP to post.<br><br><br><br>
Maybe we vegans can learn to better garnish our omnis and vegetarians more effectively if we know where maple syrup might have worked better than vinegar.<br><br><br><br>
My gawd what a crap analogy.<br><br><br><br>
I've just never seen a vegan cross the line and I think it'd be wicked-awesome to see an example of what we're all referring to in action.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>veggiejanie</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think you're missing my point.</div>
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I wasn't addressing your comments in specific, the "honey vs. vinegar" analogy is very common and has come up in PETA threads and other contexts. Vinegar in this doesn't represent only being a "jerk", it represents confrontation and criticism generally.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jeezycreezy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I would still like to know what specific brands of vinegar prompted the OP to post.<br><br><br><br>
Maybe we vegans can learn to better garnish our omnis and vegetarians more effectively if we know where maple syrup might have worked better than vinegar.<br><br><br><br>
My gawd what a crap analogy.<br><br><br><br>
I've just never seen a vegan cross the line and I think it'd be wicked-awesome to see an example of what we're all referring to in action.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ</div>
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It's just an analogy. It's not supposed to be perfect. Never would I say literal vinegar is not quite useful and necessary.<br><br><br><br>
Oh, and to troub, generally, when you have more people living the vegan lifestyle, you have less harm done to animals, which I figured everyone would know and realize was implicit in my post.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>skylark</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
It's just an analogy.</div>
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I was referring to the lamo direction I took the analogy in more than the original maple-syrup-subbed-for-honey idiom. There's nothing wrong with saying you catch more flies with honey than vinegar other than it being such a cliche. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Oh, and to troub, generally, when you have more people living the vegan lifestyle, you have less harm done to animals, which I figured everyone would know and realize was implicit in my post.</div>
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I think troub knows this. That guy's quite the sharpest vegan cheese on the tray.<br><br><br><br>
What we're discussing specifically is tactics. No one's arguing the end result.<br><br><br><br>
And as <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showpost.php?p=1378129&postcount=2" target="_blank">Irizary</a> so eloquently pointed out, it's frustrating to sit back and mollycoddle people who don't get it just to make people think vegans are all cool and groovy.<br><br><br><br>
For some it's a moral imperative to stop as much suffering as soon as possible — being nice and accepting of people just means they're going to keep on doing something which is objectionable while you sit idly by.<br><br><br><br>
Sadly, for people like me, being a PITA on veggieboards and to their family and friends is about as much as they can do to further the cause, so to speak.<br><br><br><br>
But as I keep saying, I haven't seen anyone attack anybody so it's kind of hard for me to defend something that I don't see happening. You know?<br><br><br><br>
For anything else I could contribute, I draw your attention to my signature.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jeezycreezy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
What we're discussing specifically is tactics.</div>
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<br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>troub</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
the idea is to save as many animals as possible.<br><br>
If this was about being seeker friendly, we would consider honey to be vegan, and free range eggs, and fish and... oh wait.</div>
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What animals are being saved?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Ludi</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
What animals are being saved?</div>
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...<br><br><br><br><br><br>
what babies are saved by not eating baby flesh?<br><br><br><br>
apparently none - cause they can't be named by name
 

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This thread is interesting and humurous in a few was <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"> I figure I might as well add to the entertainment with my opinion <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/blush.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":eek:"><br><br><br><br>
In my opinion, it depends on the reason why someone chose the path of being vegetarian. Was it for diet/health reasons? Or is it more moral/spiritual? If it's the latter, then yea, that person needs to be educated on why dairy/egg farms are just as bad as the factory farms. But if it's only for diet then you probably won't ever get through. Just like I know it's pointless to try and get through this guy at work who claims to be vegetarian but will order 4 plates of sushi/sashimi every Friday. *shrugs*<br><br><br><br>
Either way, there does need to be a balance of polite education without being pushy and the kicks in the butt <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wink3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=";)"> I have yet to meet any vegans with a holier than thou attitude. Some people are a bit up front and don't beat around the bush on things but you can't take it too personal <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>troub</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
...<br><br><br><br><br><br>
what babies are saved by not eating baby flesh?<br><br><br><br>
apparently none - cause they can't be named by name</div>
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It's a serious question. If you're talking about domestic animals' lives being saved by not eating them, you should know which animals are being saved and where they are currently living. I don't eat pigs, but I've never saved one single pig's life by not eating it. In the case of domestic animals, at best we may be preventing animal births and subsequent deaths. I think we like to believe we're saving animals' lives by not eating them, but I think this is very misleading and really in most cases "false advertising." I'd like to see this myth laid to rest. Nobody is adopting the animals you don't eat.
 

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Quite argumentative, are we.
 

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this is a vegetarian message board so naturally there would be some hostility against omnis (right?) like if you went on a Washington Redskins board there's a TON of hostility against the Dallas Cowboys and vice versa.<br><br>
I would find it more odd if on a veg*n board people were saying "omnis are so great, I love the fact that people eat meat so I don't have to"<br><br>
well I'm not hostile or condescending but I can see how other veg*ns would be (well the ethical ones at least)
 
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