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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When I first went vegetarian I thought veg*ns would be openminded, you know. Openminded about lifestyles. After being on some veg*n forums, seeing what people think, it's like... wow, I was kinda wrong.<br><br><br><br>
A lot of vegans look down on vegetarians for not being a vegan, not being as freakin good as them. A lot of vegetarians look down on omnivores for being omnivores. Like they think they're so much better than others, so perfect. Everyone has their own lifestyle, whatever that is.<br><br><br><br>
*shrug* Or maybe I'm just getting offended over people saying my mom is a murderer for eating meat. :p
 

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It sounds like you think that veg*nism is a value-free alternative life-style choice. It is for some people. But for others it's a moral imperative to stop contributing to the torture and "murder" of animals in the food industry (far over 10 billion per year killed in the US alone, the vast majority raised on factory farms). For the latter group of veg*ns, expecting them to "accept" the choice of others to participate in the cruelty is like asking people who spend their lives trying to end violent racism to be tolerant and accepting of racist actions.<br><br><br><br>
When I see the horrific conditions that animals on factory farms are raised in, I know that it's a morally better choice to not participate in that.<br><br><br><br>
Many people who are aware of what happens to those animals have a sense of urgency about the issue, because they know how deeply the animals are suffering simply because most people are attached to the custom and taste of flesh. So if you do some research, you might see why some people feel so strongly about this.<br><br><a href="http://www.meetyourmeat.com" target="_blank">http://www.meetyourmeat.com</a><br><br><a href="http://www.whyvegan.com" target="_blank">http://www.whyvegan.com</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>bwgan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
*shrug* Or maybe I'm just getting offended over people saying my mom is a murderer for eating meat. :p</div>
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I don't agree with people who resort to these kinds of comments. There are better, more constructive ways to get the vegan message across, IMO. I'm sure this is at least part of the reason you are feeling the way you do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
karenlovessnow, that's it. You got it.<br><br><br><br>
Yes, I've seen what happens to the animals. It's horrible, no arguement. I know how strong the feeling of injustice is. I just don't think people's lifestyles should be shoved down someone else's throat. It's like homophobes trying to force homosexual people into straightness. It's just plain f*cked up. Not as bad, but still, the point applies. You won't get your point across to everyone by acting like an imperiative jerk (I'm not calling you one, lol).
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>bwgan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I just don't think people's lifestyles should be shoved down someone else's throat. It's like homophobes trying to force homosexual people into straightness. It's just plain f*cked up. Not as bad, but still, the point applies.</div>
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No, that would not be a good analogy! What is the moral underpinning to the analogy?<br><br><br><br>
Would you call the people trying to stop jews from being killed in concentration camps analogous to the homophobes? If no, then why would you call the people who are trying to stop others from contributing to the mass torture and killing of animals for trivial reasons analogous to them? Would you call people who are vigorously trying to end slavery analogous to the homophobes? Why not? Your analogy indicates the belief that contributing to the real torture and killing of billions of defenseless animals may be a legitimate and ethical lifestyle choice. Do you see slaveholding or holding others in concentration camps in the same way? When is it o.k. to campaign for others who are being terribly hurt and oppressed? Were those trying to end slavery shoving their ideas down the slaveholders' throats?
 

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I agree that the original analogy is flawed (since it implies, unintentionally, that homosexuality is "wrong", etc.)<br><br><br><br>
Perhaps though, we can leave the Holocaust/Slavery analogies out of this thread as well. There are many VBers (including myself) who disagree with this approach. A CH thread on the subject would be more appropriate.
 

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I'm Jewish. Some of my relatives died in concentration camps. But I don't know that other analogies make sense for the mass use, abuse, and killing of animals (if anything I think these are vastly underpowered, as the use and killing is so much more numerically massive, global, ubiquitous for animals). But to the extent that it hangs people up from the point, o.k.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>IamJen</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I agree that the original analogy is flawed (since it implies, unintentionally, that homosexuality is "wrong", etc.)</div>
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It implies that homophobes <i>think</i> homosexuality is wrong, like vegetarians think that eating meat is wrong. bwgan is clearly comparing the behavior of individuals with strong morality judgments, not the actual morality of their beliefs.
 

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bottom line, there are vegans who are jerks and vegans who are not, the same as the general public. you get to choose who you interact with.<br><br><br><br>
sticks and stones....
 

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That's true. It seems like part of the problem here is disappointment and confusion that a certain group of people "should" be a certain way, yet some of them are not. But people have different motivations for believing and acting in certain ways, that tend to confound those "shoulds."
 

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not all vegans are free spirit hippies who wear patchouli and live in yurts. some are just as dogmatic as Pat Robertson at a gay pride parade.
 

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Well, like I said before, they don't all consider it a personal, value-free life-style choice, but instead as a moral imperative as serious and pressing as other great historical injustices.<br><br><br><br>
But again, I think to use the analogy of homophobes trying to convert gays must come out of the belief system that there's nothing ethically wrong with terribly hurting and killing many billions of animals each year - it's just another lifestyle choice.
 

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I've found that whenever I've made presumptions about another group of people............"I thought vegans would be...........", "I thought nurses would be............" ultimately I've been disappointed.<br><br><br><br>
Veg*ns emcompass many people and lifestyles and ages and it's best not to make presumptions about any of them.<br><br><br><br>
I have met some "I'm veggier than thou" persons online, but I don't let them bother me in the least. They are passionate and if they choose to make a judgement that they are morally superior, I allow them that. I don't have to sleep with them, be friends with them, or listen to them.<br><br><br><br>
I have met many more awesome vegans that have inspired me.<br><br><br><br>
If and when I go vegan it will be because of vegan inspiration I find here and other places. But it won't be from a "you're a murderer for eating cheese and how dare you contribute to the misery and mass murder of animals" kind of vegan. Shamed based tactics aren't going to work on me. Anyway, that's off topic.<br><br><br><br>
The point is not to make presumptions about a group. Take what you need and leave the rest.
 

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All right, let's see if I can get through this without a single analogy...<br><br><br><br>
I'm vegan and I don't <i>believe</i>, I <i>know</i> that Factory Farming is, to put it mildly, brutally horrible (this includes the meat, egg and dairy industry) and I find it hard to embrace anyone who contributes to it. If that makes me closed-minded, militant, the vegan police, whatever, then so be it.<br><br><br><br>
In the case of omnis, I think a lot of them are either oblivious, in denial or just don't care.<br><br><br><br>
But from a vegan's point of view—at least mine—it's rather disconcerting to think that a vegetarian who is likely much more open minded and aware of what is going on can still eat eggs and dairy.<br><br><br><br>
I suspect vegetarians, OTOH, are quite proud of the advances they've made and expect to be accepted for it. And when a vegan comes along and says, essentially: "Sorry. Not good enough." It's probably a blow to the ego.<br><br><br><br>
I can only speak for myself and I think any amount of compassion towards animals should be applauded. So good on ya vegetarians...but why stop there?<br><br><br><br>
I know there's more I can do as a vegan, and by gawd, feel free to give me a kick in the arse in that direction.<br><br><br><br>
It's the same how I think vegans will espouse the truths they know and, I wonder, if vegetarian sensitivity is nothing more than a severe case of shooting the messenger?<br><br><br><br>
How we vegans go about this can be a little much, but I haven't see too many vegans cross the line, attack anyone personally, or call your mom a murderer. A better approach might be kid gloves. A lot of us choose tough love. I know which one's more tolerable and I suspect I know which one's more effective as well.<br><br><br><br>
As for the homosexual analogy, that is beyond deeply flawed. Besides the fact that homosexuals don't tend to try to get straight people to turn (it doesn't work that way) they also don't harm anyone or any animals.<br><br><br><br>
My mom is an omni but I don't take offense when people make negative comments about omnis because it's not directed towards her...and I don't necessarily disagree.<br><br><br><br>
Anyway, Irizary already said it all much better than I could.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>purrpelle</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
not all vegans are free spirit hippies who wear patchouli and live in yurts. some are just as dogmatic as Pat Robertson at a gay pride parade.</div>
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Get outta town! Are you sure?
 

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well, I wear patchouli and never called anyone a murderer. well, except for my friend's husband who murdered her. i just wanted an opportunity to bash Pat Robertson. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Scythe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Of course the ultimate solution would be to not care what afforementioned vegans think of you.</div>
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Conversely vegans shouldn't care what vegetarians think of them. After all, isn't apathy is the key to human understanding?<br><br><br><br>
Peace. (Or not.)<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jeezycreezy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Conversely vegans shouldn't care what vegetarians think of them. After all, isn't apathy is the key to human understanding?<br><br><br><br>
Peace. (Or not.)<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ</div>
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Understanding? Hel no. People never have understood each other and never will, but it sure would result in a lot less bitching if they didn't put so much value on trying to make everyone else see them as good and right.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Scythe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Understanding? Hel no. People never have understood each other and never will, but it sure would result in a lot less bitching if they didn't put so much value on trying to make everyone else see them as good and right.</div>
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True dat. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":up:"><br><br><br><br>
That was sort of what I was trying to convey albeit in a facetious way. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
The key to happiness is not giving a crap what other people think of you.<br><br><br><br>
Why some vegetarians need the approval of vegans or care enough to get upset if we harp on about eggs and dairy is quite beyond my capacity.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 
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