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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For those interested I just got a few phone calls with some interesting information I had called about.<br><br><br><br>
1. Jack Frost Sugar no longer uses bone char, opting instead for a non animal sourced charcoal.<br><br><br><br>
2. Domino Sugar informs me that the plants in New Orleans(5) and Baltimore(4) DO use bone char, which he also told me, is now being called natural charcoal! The plants in Brooklyn(2) and Yonkers(1) DO NOT use bone char.<br><br><br><br>
The way to tell which plant the sugar comes from is by the number of the processing plant on the package. If the number starts with the number I have listed after each plant, that is where it comes from.<br><br><br><br>
I had a hard time trying to explain to the Man who called me back, why the use of bone char was unacceptible to me.<br><br>
He kept launching into this long assurance that no part of the bone char remains in the finished product. I think I finally got him to understand that the issue is using bone char at all, not if it was present in the sugar!<br><br><br><br>
3. Beet Sugar never uses bone char as that type of refining is not necessary. Florida Crystals is one that comes from sugar beets. I am looking for others.<br><br><br><br>
don't know if this is of interest to anyone but thought i would put it out there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I was using an artificial sweetener, which i certainly didn't like doing, which is why I was on a mission to find a sugar that didn't do something disgusting in the refining process!<br><br><br><br>
The guy was really funny. He was like " well, there are no animal remains in the sugar. Kinda like the ones who tell us " well, theres no meat in this, only chicken broth. At least I think he gets it now. Its funny he didn't already know what the objection was because he said there had been numerous inquiries about the use of bone char. I also like the way they have renamed it to sound less objectionable.
 

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less objectionable, or less likely to be questioned by vegetarians? heh.<br><br><br><br>
just like the "natural flavour" in McD's fries. blah.<br><br><br><br>
but yeah that is good info, thanks for posting it. i doubt those brands can be found up here but i'll keep an eye out <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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"If the number starts with the number I have listed after each plant,"<br><br><br><br>
Where is the list ??<br><br><br><br>
I'm very interested.
 

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The list was in her post...<br><br><br><br>
New Orleans (5) - uses bone char<br><br>
Baltimore (4) - uses bone char<br><br>
Brooklyn (2) - doesn't use it<br><br>
Yonkers (1) - doesn't use it
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Domino Sugar does market in Canada, under a different name. I am looking for what that is now and will post it when I find it! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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"you made an impression that will make them rethink the use of bone char."<br><br><br><br>
Yea. he gave the impression that vegans focus on tiny, and sometimes arbitrary, details, and thus can possibly never be pleased, no matter how hard you try.<br><br><br><br>
"New Orleans (5) - uses bone char<br><br>
Baltimore (4) - uses bone char<br><br>
Brooklyn (2) - doesn't use it<br><br>
Yonkers (1) - doesn't use it'<br><br><br><br>
Right. But how do you know that they don't use leather belts for the power-take-off to run centrifuge in the Brooklyn plant? And how do you know whether they don't use neoprene-impregnated polypropylene belts, in New Orleans? And which results in more harm to animals, per ton of sugar refined, bone char, or leather belts? And how do you know that the Brooklyn plant doesn't buy cane or "raw" sugar from carribean plantations where the workers are treated very poorly (much sugar indeed comes from such sources)? The New orleans plant is likely to use, at least to some extent, a considerable amount of locally grown cane -- which is cut by workers working under much better conditions, or cut by machine.<br><br><br><br>
Why focus on one little thing, the bone char. The filter is a mutlistage filter. Do you know what materials are used in the other stages? Sounds like you are jumping to conclusions about relative amounts of animal harm caused by one processing plant versus another. YOu can't really know which plant does more harm unless you know all the details about how the plant works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I said I don't know if this is of interest to anyone but thought i would put it out there. So, if it is not of interest to you, don't bother with it. I have never seen people so ready to argue about just about everything as a few on this site.<br><br><br><br>
And if you think migrant workers are treated any better in New Orleans, or Florida or anywhere else in the US, than those in the Caribean you apparently have had no dealings with that particular issue in this country.<br><br><br><br>
Nothing changes without starting with one small step and if a company can maybe start with one change then the others will follow, with enough interest from the consumers who are responsible for their existance at all.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
What do you suggest to do about such products? Just stop using them? Or try to make a change in the way they are brought to us, one step at a time?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
"Yea. he gave the impression that vegans focus on tiny, and sometimes arbitrary, details, and thus can possibly never be pleased, no matter how hard you try."<br><br><br><br>
The impression he gave was that he had no idea what a Vegan was and why the use of bone char was unacceptable since it wasn't being consumed. Not that unreasonable of a question if you don't know what Vegan means. He never once gave the impression you imply. It just took some time to explain things to him. I reread my post and have no idea how you came up with that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I am not familiar with Sucanat, what is that?<br><br><br><br>
I use Florida Crystals too. I live in NY but my step mom sends it to me. I don't use sugar for much other than baking so a bag lasts quite some time!
 

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yarnblossom writes:<br><br>
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No, the sucanat I use is very sweet and dark. It is dehydrated sugar cane juice that has not had the molassas removed.<br><br>
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I believe you are mistaken.<br><br><br><br>
Sugar that has not had the molasses removed <b>is</b> molasses. If it doesn't have as strong a molasses flavor as light molasses, it has had some of the other materials found in cane juice, other than sucrose and water, removed.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/manufact/sucanatspecs.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/m...canatspecs.htm</a><br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/manufact/organicman.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/m...organicman.htm</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/manufact/orgsucanat.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/m...orgsucanat.htm</a><br><br><br><br>
The information on the above pages suggests that I am correct. If it were merely cane juice that had been dehydrated they would have said so. What they describe are processed foods. The label "natural" and "organic" on them means virtually nothing.<br><br><br><br>
There <b>are</b> sweeteners that are dehydrated cane juice. These are Steens Cane syrup, they have a web site. And Grandma's molasses. They have a very strong molasses flavor, without "added" molasses. They labels on both products indicate that they consist of dehydrated cane juice that has not had anything added or removed other than water, except for slight filtration or sedimentation to take out cane fiber particles and remove some of the cloudyness.
 

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Acc to one of the pages i linked to above, sucanat is made by first making ordinary white sugar, and then blending back some of the molasses that is removed. In other words, they just buy some white sugar, and some molasses, dissolve some of each in water, then dry them.<br><br><br><br>
Acc to the 89% sucrose figure, they don't even reconstitute it to the orig cane strength, which I would guess is about 77 percent sucrose. Plus that white sugar that they use, could have been processed thru bone char.<br><br><br><br>
Stop being so naive.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/manufact/sucanat.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/manufact/sucanat.htm</a>
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
"Stop being so naive."<br><br><br><br>
Once again, a nasty comment, undeserved.<br><br>
You did not make the correct assumption from the links you read. You overlooked the fact, as was stated on those links, that UNREFINED cane sugar is used in making Sucanat. Bone Char is used in the refining process.<br><br><br><br>
In speaking with the customer service rep at Wholesome Sweeteners (281) 490 9582, She assured me that there is not bone char or for that matter animal derived materials or procedures used in making it. In fact, they have applied for and are awaiting certification from Vegan Action, to use the V symbol on there vegan products.<br><br><br><br>
Most of us do have enough gray cells to rub together to make an informed choice as to what we use so , please, Do your homework and make a call or two to verify your information before you alarm others about a product they may be using or wish to use.
 

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veggiemyte,<br><br>
from the web page i linked to above<br><br><br><br>
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Sucanat® granulated cane juice is made by blending together the two sweeteners that typical sugar processing separates<br><br>
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That couldn't make it any clearer. (1) First "typical" sugar processing is performed. That means separating cane juice into 99.9 percent pure white sucrose, and blackstrap molasses. Then (2) these 2 sweeteners are blended together.<br><br><br><br>
The 2 sweeteners that typical sugar processing separates, are -- (1) 99.9 percent pure white sucrsose, and (2) blackstrap molasses. It couldn't be any clearer. about what is being blended together, to make sucanat.<br><br><br><br>
These 2 sweeteners, white sugar, and blackstrap molasses, are the 2 sweeteners that typical sugar processing separates. It couldn't be any clearer. These are the typical results of typical sugar processing; "unrefined" cane sugar, as you stated you were told on the phone, is <i>not</i> one of the results, of typical sugar processing. The woman on the phone is humoring you.<br><br><br><br>
While it is conceivable that the white sugar from which sucanat was made, was made without bone-char filtering, sucanat is by no stretch of the imagination "unrefined" -- it has been, according to the web page i listed, refined, and then reconstituted. That is not the same as unrefined.<br><br><br><br>
I am not arguing that this sugar is unsuitable for vegans, I am arguing that it is not a whole food, and it is not natural. And it is certainly not, as yarnblossom said "dehydrated sugar cane juice that has not had the molassas removed." It is "typical" (white) sugar that has had <i>some</i> but not all of the molasses content that was taken out -- put back into it. <i>The molasses was removed.</i> Then some molasses, probably from a different batch of sugar, was mixed it, along with water, and then the mixture was again dehydrated.<br><br><br><br>
It is heavily processed -- to look natural.<br><br><br><br>
Nowhere was it stated on any of the links I supplied, that "unrefined" sugar was used in making Sucanat, as you claim it was stated. In fact, they said Sucanat was made by blending together the two sweeteners that typical sugar processing separates - sugar and molasses.<br><br><br><br>
 

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I cannot find the word "unrefined" on any of the web pages I've linked to above. They just don't use that word in reference to their products. It just may seem like it might be unrefined, if you don't read the text carefully, and you pick up on what you think they are trying to conote, rather than on what they are unmistakably denoting. In commerce, connotation is used to influence you to buy; wise consumers look only at denotation. Traditionally, no-one holds sellers accountable for conotations that buyers might think were there. Only unmistakable denotions, are sellers held accountable for.<br><br><br><br>
Isn't that why beer commercials feature scantily clad attractive young women hanging about men who are drinking the advertised beer? Does that mean advertiser should be held accountable for the conotation that if you buy the advertised beer, scantily clad attractive young women will hang around you? If you buy their beer, and the women don't show up, does that mean you can bring the beer back to the market and say I want my money back because no women showed up? Traditionally, you won't get your money back. Only unmistable denotations, that the beer doesn't meet up to, will get you a refund. For example if you open the bottle and find that the alcohol content is not the same percent as stated, or discover that they didn't really use Rocky mountain spring water like the ad said, but used some city's chlorinated tap water.
 

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veggiemyte writes:<br><br>
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Most of us do have enough gray cells to rub together to make an informed choice<br><br>
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I have suffered significant injury to my gray matter, yet i <i>still</i> seem to have learned more about various products, than you have.<br><br><br><br>
One of the advantages of unrefined cane syrup is that no chemicals are used in processing it. Reconstituted sugar that is made to look somewhat like unrefined sugar, has traces of the chemicals that were used as part of the separation process of the white sugar and the blackstrap molasses. That is, the molasses contains traces of sulfur. Since even "organic" sucanat is made with "organic evaporated cane juice and organic blackstrap molasses" (<a href="http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/manufact/organicman.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/m...organicman.htm</a>) I would think that it would contain traces of the sulfur that was used to produce the molasses. As far as I know, there is no way to produce blackstrap molasses without using sulfur and without traces of sulfur ending up in the molasses. I would think that the non-organic sucanat would also have a sulfur content. One difference would be that organic sucanat, produced from "evaporated cane juice" (off-white refined sugar" and bs molasses, would be produced from organically grown cane. The regular sucanat would be produced from non-organicaly grown cane. Also the regular sucanat is white sugar and blackstrap molasses, and the organic sucanat is evaporated cane juice (light tan sugar) and blackstrap molasses.<br><br><br><br>
Note that "evaporated cane juice" is nearly the same as white-refined sugar. They describe it as having a "natural blond" in color. That is enough information for me to make an estimate of what the percentage of sucrose is. While white sugar is 99.9 percent sucrose, light blond sugar would be about 99 percent sucrose, in my estimation. Plain boiled down cane juice, that has then been dehydrated, in my estimation, be about 87 percent sucrose.
 

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yarnblossom writes<br><br>
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Nobody was claiming that it was a whole food. Just that it is VEGAN<br><br>
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you claimed that it was "dehydrated sugar cane juice that has not had the molassas removed." That sounds like you are claiming it is a whole food. But indeed, it has had the mollasses removed, then put back in -- along with some of the sulfur used to help remove the molasses. And veggiemyte specifically said it was "unrefined." That sounds like he is claiming, also, that it is a whole food. But their own web page specifically says that it has been refined, then reconstituted.<br><br><br><br>
You quote the package label:<br><br>
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Organic Sucanat is made from 100% certified organic sugar cane. it's minimally processed in order to bring you the most natural and delicious cane sweetner available. After the sugar cane is harvested, it is press to squeeze out the cane juice. The Juice is then clarified, filtered, and evaporated to remove excess water. We then crystailize the resulting syrup which is rich with molasses flavor and the vitamins, minerals and trace elements naturally found in the sugar cane plant.<br><br>
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If you read this for denotation, instead of connotation (and denotation is the only think commerce honors), you realize that "minimally processed" does not tell you much, without specific clarification. Minimally compared to what? It just means "less processed" than some of the other sugars you might buy. That is all you can hold them to, from that statement. "In order to bring you the most natural and delicious cane sweetner available" is simply a matter of opinion about how they feel about it. It denotes nothing whatsoever.<br><br><br><br>
"After the sugar cane is harvested, it is press to squeeze out the cane juice." All cane sugar starts out this way. "The Juice is then clarified, filtered, and evaporated to remove excess water." All sugar goes thru this process.<br><br><br><br>
"We then crystailize the resulting syrup which is rich with molasses flavor and the vitamins, minerals and trace elements naturally found in the sugar cane plant." Yup. And in the process of crystalizing the syrup -- and the syrup is rich in molasses flavor and vitamins minerals and trace elements -- the resulting crystals lose much of the molasses flavor, vitamins, minerals, and trace elements. Read it carefully. They don't say that what they retain and use after they crystalize the syrup, is rich with molasses flavor, vitamins, minerals, and trace elements. They only say that the <i>syrup</i> was rich with molasses flavor, vitamins, minerals, and trace elements. In the process of crystalizing the syrup, much of the molasses flavor, vitamins, minerals, and trace elements -- are lost. They just neglect to tell you that. (They will probably swear up and down that they didn't "neglect" to tell you that, but that the honestly didn't think it was real important, or that you wanted to know.) The web page I referred to before, indicates that they then put some of the molasses flavor, vitamins, minerals, and trace elements, back in -- to "organic" sucanat. And their "evaporated cane juice" (the crystals) <i>doesn't</i> have that molasses, vitamins, minerals, and trace elements, returned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"No, the sucanat I use is very sweet and dark. It is dehydrated sugar cane juice that has not had the molassas removed."<br><br><br><br>
According to Wholesome Sweeteners, the one you are using is the Organic Sucanet.<br><br><br><br>
"Sugar that has not had the molasses removed is molasses"<br><br><br><br>
Wrong, Molasses is a product of sugar manufacturing. In short, molasses is what remains after sugar is extracted.<br><br><br><br>
Here's a link about molasses. There are several more listed with the search engines.<br><br><a href="http://www.mtnlaurel.com/Recipes/molasse.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mtnlaurel.com/Recipes/molasse.htm</a><br><br><br><br><br><br>
By the way, I also had Wholesome Sweeteners Fax me what Jennifer told me on the phone. You too, Soilman, can have the same thing faxed to you if you take the time. Trust me, I have been around the block a few times and know enough to get the info in writing.<br><br><br><br>
You need to spend a little more time researching you information, deciphering what it says and THEN posting it. If you go to the homepage for the links you posted, you can find all the correct information about Sucanet either on their site, or on their links page.
 
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