Studies show that Plants feel Pain

marmalade · May 20, 2003

I was having dinner (a nice grilled vegetable ciabatta, incidentally) with some friends and the conversation got around to mine and my SO's vegetarianism. One brought up the studies that claimed that plants felt pain.

So myself, being the inquisitive type, looked it up on the Internet (even though it seemed absurd to me). Apparently, plants release a chemical agent when they are damaged in order to control cell growth and apparently the chemical agent emits a high pitched sound, which is how researchers determine the amount of the agent released.

http://www.sciencenet.org.uk/databas...1/b01052d.html

(second hand info, I know, but I haven't found the actual data)

This doesn't justify the pain caused to animals through the meat and dairy/egg industry, I know, but what does this research... imply to living an ethical life?

Loki · May 20, 2003

The chemical is released, but it is not processed through neurones, or any through any means that could percieve pain.

mushroom · May 20, 2003

I believe plants may feel pain...they certainly feel SOMETHING and they don't actually like to be killed and eaten, I am sure. Yet, when one eats the plant directly... fewer plants are eaten.

Also, when one is eating fruit...I don't think the plant minds at all.

I actually do feel a little bad about eating plants, but I eat them anyway. I mean, what else can I eat?

GhostUser · May 20, 2003

plants dont think or anything like that so how can they not like to be killed and eaten ? and thats what fruit is for isnt it ? to spread the seed of the tree?

SunnyK · May 20, 2003

I still feel, no matter what plants may or may not sense, that I'd rather eat them than animals. Maybe this is just a form of species discrimination -- after all, for a while I was a fake vegetarian who ate fish, simply because I felt closer to mammals, and after them to fowl.

Bottom line is: hey, I do want to survive, too. That's why I'm willing to admit to omnis that I really might eat animals if I had no other option -- if it came to the point that I was hungry enough to kill them myself.

I hate it when omnis ask why we can "murder" plants!! Like they don't ... That just seems to be a part of their stereotype that veggies are whackos -- what, they expect me to kill myself so that I won't have to eat anything??

Well, I guess we could all be fruitarians like that chick in Notting Hill. "Poor carrots. That's beastly."

Thalia · May 20, 2003

Plants respond to their environment, like all living things, releasing chemicals, changing, communicating with other systems in the organism. These are all things that are common in life. Consciousness is another ball of wax altogether. None of this stuff about plant communication and response has anything to do with consciousness. Consciousness is a highly complex trait, I would be surprised if it had developed so early on in evolution, especially in something that is very limited in how it responds to it's environment (immobile, slow moving, etc.)

ETA- note this segment of the article:

Quote:

But really, if Im going to use this simple definition of pain, then anything living feels pain, because all organisms have a repertoire of stress responses. Bacteria have many for example, and their response to heat has been particularly well studied. Can we believe that bacteria feel pain?

So in short, at a very simple level, ignoring the emotions of pain, plants have systems and responses that look like pain. But for many, me included, its hard to really call that pain, because pain means so much more.

triumvir · May 21, 2003

While I don't belive that plants feel pain, I do believe that they have a certain worth as living things. I wouldn't want to kill plants for no reason but it is not the same as with animals.

If plants did feel pain, it would only make veganism that much more importatn anyway so it isn't a very good argument against veg*nism.

tomjo32 · May 21, 2003

It seems impossible to me that plants are capable of having the sensation of pain. Physiologically, a central nervous system is necessary for an organism to process the complex sequence of events that makes it aware that it is experiencing discomfort. Am I wrong here?

GhostUser · May 21, 2003

When would say, a celery experience this pain? Is it when the farmer harvests it? Does is die then, and feel no more pain? Some plants can be reproduced by taking "cuttings" which means that even after harvesting a cutting, the plant tissue is still alive. So does the celery die when it's cooked? What if I eat it raw? Does it hurt as I chop/chew it? Sorry, I just don't buy it. Plants don't have a central nervous system, so I don't think they feel pain. But then I wonder, can the venus flytrap "feel"?

Brandy

dk_art · May 21, 2003

The presence of pain in plants has absoltely no purpose. Traits as complex as pain perception and transmission do not develop if they do not allow better survival of the living object. Plants are immobile and if a fire breaks out a foot away, whether they will be consumed or not depends on the wind direction and other factors (none of which is controlled by the plant). A complex animal will feel unpleasant sensations and flee and thus pass on those genes that promote sensations as being unpleasant as a survival reaction.

In rare occasions , a few humans don't feel pain. they can hold their hand on a stove burner and feel nothing. These people have a high susceptability to causing themselves great damage and perhaps dying early (and thus not passing on these genes).

If an animal living in the wild has a rare genetic makup that makes it not feel pain, it will surely die very quickly due to getting into some dangerous situation. Thus these detrimental genes are not passed on as a trait that allows better survival.

The definition of pain from the article is simplified, misleading and wrong.

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"why dont we (for the moment) define it as a response to physical stress aimed at reducing that stress. "

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This could equally apply to when my Window XP operating system gives me an error saying a program needs to be shut down . It does so to prevent a situation that is not benififial to the workings of the system. I will not believe my computer feels pain though.

It could also apply to a bridge that has been damaged in a flood. The stress of this damage is relieved by the collapse of the bridge material. However, the bridge is not alive (unless these "scientists" also have a new definitin of that term as well!)

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" by listening for it. To be precise, they captured the gas in a bell jar and fired lasers at it, which resonated with the molecules and emitted sound at a particular frequency. Upon seeing this, it wasnt long before scientists and journalists alike were calling these sounds screams, and suddenly this response seemed a lot more like pain as we know it!"

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What a completely bogus assumption and fabricated situation which is totally removed from any character of the plant. They are collecting gas and interacting with it with lasers away from the plant (ie, the plant has no role in this activity) and that interaction causes noise.

That's like me putting a twist tie in the microwave and the sparks making noises and me saying a twist tie is screaming. This is pure "anti-science" and rubbish!

Oatmeal · May 21, 2003

Dang....

What about fish? We still can eat fish at least... right?? Fish don't feel pain you know - they don't scream, you see, the darned little things, hehe.

Did u know.... rocks release a loud sound when they are shattered. Quick! Rocks feel pain! They **scream**!!! We should not exploit rocks. Rock liberation NOW!!!

epski · May 21, 2003

"It's okay to eat fish, because they don't have any feelings" -- Kurt Cobain

missleigh · May 21, 2003

But wait... I thought fish were vegetables! Why else would people constantly ask me "Don't you eat fish?" when they know I'm a vegan?

kpickell · May 21, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by V3gan

plants dont think or anything like that so how can they not like to be killed and eaten ? and thats what fruit is for isnt it ? to spread the seed of the tree?

What does this comment mean? I didn't understand what you're saying.

marmalade · May 21, 2003

That bridge/rock/twist tie analogy is great!

ROCK LIBERATION!!

Thanks!

dk_art · May 21, 2003

"What does this comment mean? I didn't understand what you're saying."

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I assume it means that fruit is attractive and nice tasting so animals want to eat them. The seeds (which are not pleasant tasting) are discarded in another location or will survive the trip through the digestive system to be left in another location. Thus any fruit which is more appealing to the local animal population will have more of it's fruit eaten and more of it's seeds spread around the land.

pcherney · May 22, 2003

Mushroom articulated my exact thoughts on this issue. Everything Mushroom said is what I would have.

Peebs · May 22, 2003

Sure, plants react to damage, but that doesn't mean they feel. They also react to light and sound, but plants certainly do not see or hear.

dk_art · May 22, 2003

"They also react to light and sound, but plants certainly do not see or hear."

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Exept for corn which have ears and potatoes which have eyes

SunnyK · May 22, 2003

Quote:

Originally posted by epski

"It's okay to eat fish, because they don't have any feelings" -- Kurt Cobain

Boy, that takes me back in so many ways. Including the sensation of still being omni, but knowing I shouldn't be.

Studies show that Plants feel Pain

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