[PistolWhip]

I am specifically talking about football (american), soccer, baseball, and basketball. Since these sports use balls made from leather, watching them is supporting the manufacturing of more balls right? For this reason, I haven't been watching football the past few years, but it makes me think why there are vegans who do watch these sports.

Also, professional athletes have to consume a great deal of skinless and fat free meats in order to compete at such a high level of play. I feel that watching supports athletes to eat more in order to boost their game.

Yet what do I know? How do you all feel about sports?

 

[GhostUser]

Just so you know, there are vegan athletes that perform just as well as others. You don't need to eat animals to be strong.

 

[PistolWhip]

Quote:

Originally Posted by veggiejanie

Just so you know, there are vegan athletes that perform just as well as others. You don't need to eat animals to be strong.

True, but most athletes do eat factory after factory filled of animals in order to gain the muscle mass they need.

 

[Mr. Sun]

You an incorrect on two fronts:

#1 Athletes do not have to eat meat to bulk up. Bill Pearl won his final Mr. Universe at the unheard of age for body builders: 41. That was two years after he became vegetarian. He had also stopped taking steriods about 10 years earlier (others were still taking them). Some 15 years later he was still huge. Check out these photos: http://www.shelterpub.com/_fitness/_...rl_photos.html

#2 More and more sports equipment is now made of synthetic material. FIFA soccer balls have been vegan for many years:

Quote:

It was not until the 1960's that the first totally synthetic ball was produced. But it was not until the late 1980's that synthetic leather totally replaced the leather ball. Up until then, it was felt that leather soccer balls provided more of a consistent flight and bounce. Synthetics used in today's soccer balls emulate the cell structure and quality of leather with less water absorption.

http://www.soccerballworld.com/Historypg2.htm

The NBA has also switched:

Quote:

Play like the pros with the official Spalding game ball for the 2006-2007 NBA season--the first ball redesign in more than 35 years and the second in 60 seasons. The game ball features Spalding's Cross Traxxion technology, a remarkable advancement embodied by two interlocking, cross-shaped panels rather than the eight oblong panels found on traditional basketballs. Each microfiber composite panel covers far more space and produces fewer channels than on older balls, resulting in better moisture management, an improved grip, and superior feel throughout the course of the game. In addition, the lack of channel convergence in the new ball decreases the surface undulation to produce a truer, more consistent bounce, a must on indoor courts with finicky surfaces. And finally, the composite material eliminates the need for a break-in period-- unlike the current leather ball--and makes each ball play far more consistently. In other words, no more adjusting your game to fit the ball, as every ball plays nearly the same.

http://www.amazon.com/Spalding-74-14.../dp/B000HI5N7A

I'm not sure if the NFL will ever switch even though it would make for a more consistant ball throughout the game -- especially in wet weather. They have to continually use new balls in each game.

Veganism isn't about completely cutting yourself off from the world though. I have omni friends and family and I'm not going to refuse to talk to them because they don't share my values 100%.

So enjoy the game.

GO BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GhostUser]

re: NBA

They switched back to leather balls recently.

 

[Mr. Sun]

Don't be sad. They'll work out the kinks and bring back the synthetic ones. Rome wasn't built in a day. There were some advantages and disadvantages with they synthetic ones -- now they just have to rework them a bit.

 

[Mr. Sun]

Remember the basics of veganism:

1. 500 years ago in England it was perfectly legal for a guy to slit a dog's throat and let the dog bleed to death. He owned the dog and could do what he wanted with it.

2. Society progressed. Now it is illegal to do that to a dog. Why? Well, we all know why.

3. Vegetarians take the next step and say that if it's illegal to do that to a dog then it should be illegal to do that to a pig. But they don't wait for the state to change the law. They implement that law to the best of their ability in their personal lives.

4. Vegans realize that every dairy cow is slaughtered in the manner mentioned above with the dog. So they decide not to do that or to pay someone to do that. They don't support the dairy industry.

We have to start somewhere. Imagine if those opposed to dog-throat-slitting 500 years ago in England had all gone to live in caves in the Himilayas. They wouldn't have been able to influece those around them. So enjoy the game and keep trying to influence those around you. Remember where it starts: being opposed to dogs having their throats slit and left to bleed to death.

 

[Mr. Sun]

Oh, and here's a raw vegan body builder. Looks like he's make a good middle linebacker: http://www.thegardendiet.com/aboutmuscle.html

 

[Mr. Sun]

Quote:

Oh yeah, there are some. Those false ideas keep a lot of people from becoming vegan, that's why it's so important to make the truth commonly known.

One popular wrong notion is that vegans are frail and skinny. *laughs* My power has increased since becoming vegan, especially my endurance, and I almost never get ill anymore. It's true that I lost some pounds, but to most people that would mean no harm

Another misconception is that veganism means to eat only grass and fruits all day. It couldn't be further from the truth! People imagine their usual meal without the meat, the dairy and the eggs, and wonder what's left. But there is a whole new world of taste to discover and savor! I really learned to cook, and nobody could say "No" to my girlfriend's vegan Tiramisu!

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/article/724

This guy is 6'1 and 190 pounds so maybe we'll put him on the corner. Looks like he could crush some of those fast moving receivers. Now if he's willing to give up some of that definition we could maybe turn him into a 220 pound running back. There's a picture of him on that link.

 

[Mr. Sun]

I must admit, Pistolwhip, that I have thought about not watching football before. But it's not because of vegan ethics -- there is nothing about football that necessitates it being involved with slaughtering animals. What I don't like is the health of these athletes being comprimised. The linemen get bigger and bigger each year and it causes them health issues regarding their knees and also the other issues that any obese person faces:

Quote:

IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) -- Heavy tackles and 300-pound nose guards are common in pro and college football. Now a study shows the trend toward beefier, overweight linemen is emerging at the high school level.

Researchers at Iowa State University found nearly half of the offensive and defensive linemen playing on Iowa high school teams qualify as overweight, and one in 10 meet medical standards for severe obesity.

"These are 15- and 16-year-old boys that have a weight and body-mass ... that as they enter adulthood puts many at a very adverse health condition, " said Dr. Joe Eisenmann, co-author of the study and a professor in pediatric exercise physiology at Iowa State.

The study appears in Wednesday's Journal of the American Medical Association.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/01/23....ap/index.html

Sometimes I think they should implement some kind of weight requirement but then you think of Shaq (basketball player) who is naturally huge. What is he, like 325 pounds or something? But he's not obese. Most people at 325 pounds are obese though. So I don't know what the answer is. How could we restrict someone who has genetics like Shaq from playing?

That being said, more and more sports are becoming more vegan without even trying to:

Quote:

Play the game of the century in these technical b-ball shoes from adidas. Durable synthetic upper in a high top basketball style, with ventilating perforations, overlays and signature adidas side striping. Quick pull lace up front with fabric eyelets, padded tongue and collar. Moisture-wicking fabric lining, cushioned insole. Lightweight EV midsole with forefoot adiPrene® cushioning for propulsion and a3 heel for comfort. Non-marking court-style traction outsole with a heel vent.

http://www.shoes.com/product.asp?cat...k/Silver/White

Quote:

The Nike Blade II Shark football shoe offers lightweight performance from two-a-days through season's end. Lightweight synthetic leather upper with midfoot spat strap. Perforated quarter panels add breathability. Contoured Phylon™ wedge midsole provides lightweight performance. Bladed TPU outsole designed for pro level shoes provides excellent traction on multiple surfaces. Wt. 14.4 oz.

http://www.prowear.dk/sko/nike/nike_...ark_bw_da.html

Synthetic leather is just becoming more and more popular:

Quote:

Consumers who still choose leather do so because they are attracted to the advertising or to the look and feel of leather, not to the fact that it comes off the backs of tortured animals. Thus, if automakers decided to use a material that looked and felt just like leather (or better), they would be praised as progressive, compassionate, ethical, and environmentally conscious and would still win the business of all consumers, including those who are attracted to the look and feel of leather.

Synthetic leather has been manufactured in the U.S. since 1963. Since then, technology has advanced, and these days, its often impossible to tell the difference between leather and synthetic leather without looking at labels. Synthetic leather is now widely used because of its uniformity, ease of care, versatility, breathability, ability to hold dye, durability, and many other advantages.

BMW and Audi already offer 'pleather' (synthetic leather) in some models. Jaguar UK offers synthetic leather and fabric options for all its vehicles. These days, there is a variety of luxurious synthetic leather options, so car companies can choose non-leather fabrics based on their appearance and durability. Ultrafabrics makes beautiful, soft faux leather for cars that is up to six times more durable than leather.

http://www.peta.org/feat/mercedes/synthetic.asp

 

[jenna]

Mr. Sun has pointed out some great info. I'd like to add a little bit. You should check out this site: http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/ Quite a few vegan athletes/bodybuilders on there.

 

[Mr. Sun]

Boy, I think I love sports too much!!! But I love this example because the 100 meters, the 200 meters and the long jump are all power events. Carl Lewis was at the top of these events as an omni but could he do it as a vegan??? You bet:

Quote:

The 1991 World Championships in Tokyo were quite incredible -- in both the 100 meters and long jump. Lewis won one and lost the other. In the 100, six runners broke 10 seconds, with Lewis leading the pack after a mighty finish. "He passed us like we were standing still," said runner-up Leroy Burrell.

For the first time in his life, after going undefeated in the long jump for a decade, after winning six Olympic gold medals, Lewis had at last set an untainted, unshared world record (since broken) with his 9.86 seconds. "The best race of my life," Lewis said. "The best technique, the fastest. And I did it at 30."

But Lewis' 10-year unbeaten streak in the long jump came to an end five days later, even though he put together the greatest series of jumps in history. Lewis had never before reached 29 feet, and this day he did it three times, including 29-2¾ (wind-aided) and 29-1¼ (against the wind). But Mike Powell, who had lost 15 consecutive times to Lewis, unleashed the longest jump in history -- 29-4½.

At the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, Lewis exacted revenge on Powell, who had the record that Lewis craved, when he edged him by 1¼ inches with a leap of 28-5½. Lewis won his eighth gold medal by anchoring the record-setting 4x100 relay team.

But eight wasn't enough for him. Lewis, who qualified third in the 1996 Olympic Trials in the long jump, showed he still had one huge leap left in him. His 27-10¾ at Atlanta was his longest jump at sea level in four years.

"Lewis beat age, gravity, history, logic and the world at a rocking Olympic Stadium in Atlanta to win the Olympic gold medal in the long jump," Reilly wrote. "It was quite possibly his most impossible moment in an impossibly brilliant career."

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016079.html

Compare the dates with this:

Quote:

Can a world-class athlete get enough protein from a vegetarian diet to compete? Ive found that a person does not need protein from meat to be a successful athlete. In fact, my best year of track competition was the first year I ate a vegan diet . Moreover, by continuing to eat a vegan diet, my weight is under control, I like the way I look. (I know that sounds vain, but all of us want to like the way we look.) I enjoy eating more, and I feel great...

In the spring of 1991 eight months after beginning to eat vegan I was feeling listless and thought I might need to add protein from meat to my diet. Dr. McDougall, however, explained that my listlessness was due to my needing more calories because I was training so many hours each day, not because I needed more animal-based protein. When I increased my calorie intake, I regained my energy. I was drinking 24 to 32 ounces of juice a day. I ate no dairy products. And I had my best year as an athlete ever!

http://earthsave.org/lifestyle/carllewis.htm

Carl Lewis won 10 Olympic medals -- nine of them gold!!!

 

[PistolWhip]

The NFL still do use the leather balls so that's reason enough I think to not watch the game. Yep.

 

[Mr. Sun]

Well do what you think is best. You don't have to watch the game. But you should keep in mind that there are many contentious issues out there such as sweatshop labor, environmental destruction, abortion etc.

Let's look at abortion. Whether you are pro-choice or pro-life you can bet that someone who believes the opposite as you has had a hand in building your house, your car and your computer. Are you going to give those up simply because you don't agree with their ethical stance on that issue? It's impossible to divorce yourself from items that were at least in part made by someone who has different ethics than you on a variety of subjects.

So do your best with your veganism and if you are making a statement by not watching the game then good for you. We all have to decide what we will and won't do based on our own ethical views.

And hopefully one day soon the NFL will see the wisdom in using a synthetic ball. The game today is being played in the rain and it would be better for the players if they had a ball that wasn't soaking up the moisture.

Edited to clarify:

Let's say half the players on the field are pro-choice and half are pro-life. Should I refuse to watch the game because half the players out there don't agree with my ethical stance? Well, I could and perhaps make a statement that way. But there is nothing that necessitates a person being pro-choice or pro-life in order to play football. In the same way there is nothing that necessitates someone being pro-choice or pro-life to build a house, a car or a computer. And in the same way there is nothing that necessitates that a football be made of leather. In fact it would be better for the game if it wasn't leather.

That is different than say a rodeo. You can't have calf roping without a calf or a horse. Well, I guess you could get rid of the horse but they'd never catch the calf. Anyway, I refuse to watch rodeos because for a rodeo it is necessary to exploit animals.

 

[Mr. Sun]

Sorry to harp on this but it's half time (my Bears are losing) and I've got some time to write some more here. I'm not a huge Prince fan.

With any other show you watch on TV you'll see people wearing leather belts and shoes. They'll be using leather purses and wallets. Some of the actors will be pro-choice and some will be pro-life. Now you could quit watching those shows but there is nothing about those show that necessitates the use of leather items. And there is nothing that necessitates that an actor have one opinion or another on abortion to act on those shows.

A leather football is no more necessary to the NFL as a leather belt is to Boston Legal.

 

[PistolWhip]

I understand your point Sun, yet the NFL does not randomly choose to use a synthetic ball one day and a leather ball another day. The game involves, has involved, and probably will involve using leather balls. It's a part of the game. The game could be played without the ball, but every game since the 1960s has involved the use of leather footballs.

The same concept exists for NFL players. Players could be vegan bodybuilders and be at the top of their game, but they aren't. I would think 95% or more of the players are omnivores; they all eat pound after pound of meat in order to beef up their bodies for the game.

If we were discussing soccer, then I would agree with you. Soccer players don't rely on their meat diets in order to perform well in the game. Eating meat or not is insignificant at this point. It is nice to know that FIFA uses synthetic balls

.

 

[MRSSHF]

I used to wonder why people had this predisposed attitude that Vegans were weird and extreme . . .

 

[Mr. Sun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PistolWhip

I understand your point Sun, yet the NFL does not randomly choose to use a synthetic ball one day and a leather ball another day. The game involves, has involved, and probably will involve using leather balls.

Once upon a time one could've said that FIFA would always use a leather ball. I was actually quite surprised that the NBA tried synthetic. We don't know that the NFL will always use leather balls. Society changes. Remember, back in the day one could slit a dog's throat without being charged. Times change. Thankfully we know better now. But veganism will take a long time to catch on. It's hard when society is immersed in animal cruelty to imagine anything different. In the meantime if you skip a football game there is no harm to you.

Quote:

It's a part of the game. The game could be played without the ball, but every game since the 1960s has involved the use of leather footballs.

Forty years of leather footballs isn't exactly showing something being steeped in a longstanding tradition. Maybe you could make an arguement about Jewish holy books being made with leather for thousands of years. I think Isaac Bashevis Singer was saying something about that.

Quote:

The same concept exists for NFL players. Players could be vegan bodybuilders and be at the top of their game, but they aren't. I would think 95% or more of the players are omnivores; they all eat pound after pound of meat in order to beef up their bodies for the game.

I would think that 95% or more of the actors on Boston legal eat meat. They eat pound after pound of meat in order to stay alive. They do it because they think it's the only way. Just like the football players. In neither case is it at all necessary.

Quote:

If we were discussing soccer, then I would agree with you. Soccer players don't rely on their meat diets in order to perform well in the game. Eating meat or not is insignificant at this point. It is nice to know that FIFA uses synthetic balls

.

Almost all soccer players eat meat. True, as you point out, it isn't necessary. Just as it isn't necessary for football players. Just as it isn't necessary for actors. Btw, did you view those photos on that link I posted in my first thread? Bill Pearl is HUGE. And he's 56 years old in those top photos. He whipped all those meat-eating body builders at that Mr. Universe in 1971 and he was 41 years old and 2 years vegetarian.

And remember, every tv show will probably always involve actors who are both pro-choice and pro-life. But it isn't necessary that one hold a position either way to act.

Bears are finished. Well, good for Manning anyway.

 

[Mr. Sun]

Could you imagine being alive back in the 1950s and being in Rio de Janeiro for the World Cup of Soccer final. Uruguay taking on the hometown Brazilians. 150 000 people in the stands. What an event. Are you going to walk out and say that they'll never be using synthetic balls or cleats. Everyone would have agreed with you if you had made such an assertion. But you would've been wrong.

You also may be interested in what Stephan Arlin says in his book Raw Power!. In a Q/A section he is asked:

Quote:

Where do you get enough protein for real muscle growth?

Where does a cow, rhinoceros, hippopotamus, or gorilla get enough protein for real muscle growth? Raw plant foods. Protein synthesis is protein synthesis.

He says when he was on the Standard American Diet he could only benchpress 300 lbs (I believe he lifts freeweights) only 3 times. On his raw vegan diet he was able to get up to 20 times with the same weight.

http://www.sunfood.com/cgi-bin/order...=Stephen_Arlin

It is interesting to note that all the biggest, strongest land animals are all veg*n. Look at the rippling muscles on a horse. Look at the size of the elephant. The meat-eaters will most often target only the weakest prey animals because they don't stand a chance against the healthy ones. I once saw on tv a very sick moose toss a grizzly bear like a rag doll. The bear killed the moose in the end but only because the moose was so sick.

 

[Mr. Sun]

jenna, I just checked out that site you linked to. Wow, this guy has HUGE arms. And he's only 160 pounds: http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/martin.htm

And this guy too: http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/mikemahler.htm