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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Have you ever seen an animal circus? One in Chile held a chimpanzee prisoner for 20 years, he was made to smoke cigarettes, and drink tea to amuse the audience. But the Chimp, Toto wasnt treated like the star attraction; in fact he was kept in a box no bigger than a dogs kennel, beaten daily and exposed to extremely nasty people. Animal Defenders International rescued him. He was in very bad condition and a lot of his hair had fallen out. Now hes going to be moved to an animal refuge in Zambia. If you know that there are circuses like that then you should contact your local RSPCA.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I live in Southern Ontario, home to Marineland. The place where captive whales die in fish bowls. A few years ago the owner was able to, legally, capture belugas from the wild and bring them to this hell.

When I was 12 my older sister took me to African Lion Safari. There I witnessed a trainer beat a terrified llama (sorry Alpaca guy) on stage in front of the entire audience. No one did anything.

My husband and I have discussed what we will do when the time comes for our son to go on school trips to these kinds of places. Do we ostrasize an already different child (uncircumcised vegan) by not letting him support the industry or do we let him go so he can see for himself the way these poor creatures are treated and hope it doesn't scar him too much. I do plan on requesting trips that don't involve the exploitation of others.
 

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The Circus I've protested outside of has Chimps..... I've stood outside their barren metal cages as they've stared at me through the grids.

We were primarily there to protest the the treatment of an Elephant; she's the only Elephant they have, and the law in this State says that Elephants must not be kept alone. However, the government nor the RSPCA are enforcing this, and so it is left up to Animal Liberation and its supporters to try and get the government to enforce its own laws. That Circus even brought in other Elephants temporarily for when the media showed up.

I'm not surprised about the beatings you mention, as Circus people are like that. The ones at this Circus urged protestors to fight them (none of us have).

Thankfully many local governments are banning Circuses with non-human acts.
 

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I just read that Sir Paul McCartney paid US$8,000 to have Toto moved.

http://smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/1...196527329.html

Quote:
Paul McCartney to give $8000 to chimp

May 20 2003

Paul McCartney will provide the plane fare home for Toto, a chimpanzee smuggled from Africa 23 years ago and forced to perform in a Chilean circus, the El Mercurio daily reported yesterday.

The former Beatle is donating $US8000 ($12,000) through Animal Defenders, a British non-governmental organisation, to finance the trip.

The gift will allow Toto to live out his days peacefully in a Zambian wildlife orphanage, under a court order in an animal cruelty case.

Toto arrived in Chile in 1979, when the Koning circus smuggled him into the country, according to Elba Munoz, who has been caring for Toto at the Primate Recuperation and Rehabilitation Centre of Santiago since late January.

The circus billed him as a gorilla, forcing him to smoke, drink alcohol and act like a boxer for its show, Mr Munoz said.

For two decades, Toto - who is 1.5 metres tall and weighs 70 kilograms - was kept in a cage no larger than one cubic metre with heavy chains around his neck and legs, Mr Munoz said.

The tight confinement caused injuries to his body, and he developed serious reactions to being in constant contact with his own waste.

The circus also castrated him in a bid to keep him under control.

"They showed him no mercy. They wanted to keep him in constant suffering so that he wouldn't attack anyone," Mr Munoz said.

A spectator at the circus originally brought a complaint against Koning seven years ago, after seeing the conditions Toto was kept in.

But Chilean courts were unable to intervene because the circus fled to Bolivia with their chimp.

Earlier this year, authorities discovered that the circus had returned to Chile and they seized Toto on January 29.

The chimp won his freedom in late April when a court ruled that he should be sent to Zambia's Chimfunshi Wildlife Orphanage. There, he will live in a free-range space at the refuge, which shelters 80 chimpanzees and other mistreated animals.

AFP
 

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"Do we ostrasize an already different child (uncircumcised vegan) by not letting him support the industry or do we let him go so he can see for himself the way these poor creatures are treated and hope it doesn't scar him too much."

Why don't you keep him from these types of activities until he is old enough to understand and make a decision for himself? I have taken my 5 year old to the circus (B&B) and the zoo (I was omni at the time). I don't think that it was a problem for her, but as she gets older, I am going to tell her more and more of the truth and let her make her own decisions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
He will be about 5 when he starts school. As this is my first child I'm not sure if he'll be emotionally mature enough to make that kind of decision on his own. I'm sure he may feel the pressure the follow his peers. I wouldn't condone a trip to a slaughterhouse at this age so how can I justify a trip to the zoo - which is almost just as horrifying in my opinion.
 

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My child will be 5 next week. She has been to B&B twice and to the zoo many times. She's fine. As she is getting older, I am letting her know, little by little what Veg*n is and why I follow that path. She is understanding it, but not particularly bothered by those things. I probaby won't go to B&B circus again, but we are zoo members, and she does learn a lot about animals at the zoo. We are lucky because the San Antonio zoo is pretty nice, but she still understands that the animals aren't free. She does, however, get to see the beauty of the live animals, and for that reason alone, I think that the zoo is beneficial.

I don't think that he will be affected by a zoo. He will, most likely, love it and be enthralled by animals. At this age, they are not likely to transpose what they see in the zoo to animal suffering. I believe that he will, most likely benefit from seeing the animals. This is just MHO. You should do what you feel is best. It won't harm him to skip zoo days either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I went to a circus once.. well almost!

We were supposed to be going.. (about 7 years ago)

But there were tons of protestors (and back then i didnt really understand what they were protesting, but now id do the same)

So they post poned it, but we couldnt go the other night as my parents were working.

A few years after that we did actually go to a webber brothers circus which had some dogs and miniture horses in.... The acts with the animals werent even that interesting, they smelt and they were really cruel to the animals, i didnt like that.

But then a couple of years ago we saw a chinese circus which was all people, and that was really interesting!!

As for zoos last year when i went to one there was a guy around my age who thought he was SOOO Cool because he was poking one of the birds in the cages with a pen.. although id never met him i went over there and gave him a piece of my mind!!! (something along the lines of YOUR NOT FUNNY OR COOL.. DO YOU WANT ME TO START POKING YOU WITH A STICK, and believe me i can be scary sometimes... so he stopped!)

Danny
 

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This is most disturbing that my namesake was held in a cage for 25 years. Sentient beings should not have to endure these atrocities. I am grateful to Paul for his release to sanctuary. Primates have 95-98% the same DNA as humans. No animal should be mistreated. Only when we are elevated on to higher spiritual plains will we understand that we are the caretakers not the oppressors.

Toto

Om Peace Amen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The Toto story is a very sad one - I checked it out with ADI and they are still trying to raise money to transport him - unfortunately the route is very out of the way for most airlines. And Toto will need a vet to travel with him.

This isn't the first, and sadly won't be the last such case - until animal circuses are banned. They may be traditional, but so is racism and lots of other things that are outdated and not the way we want our society to be.

I do appreciate the dilemma's parents face in whether or not to allow their kids to go to circuses, but the thing that makes me cross
is that schools think it is ok to plan excursions to circuses. I don't know what the balance of parent sentiment is at schools, but I suppose this is a way to approach the issue and not let children be made to make horrible choices that are not of their making.
 

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It's sad what people consider entertainment.

There is a primate sanctuary in Britain, called Monkey World (I think). They have chimps there who have had all their teeth pulled so that tourists in France and Spain could have their pics taken with them, without getting bitten. Stupid people.

Kurm, good idea! Maybe even if the adults don't get it, the kids would.
 
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