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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a friend/coworker who is a former vegetarian. She was a vegetarian for about 5 years, then contracted mono. Her doctor told her that in order to recover, she needed to eat meat, so she went back to being an omni.<br><br><br><br>
Every once in awhile, we'll be chatting, my veganism will come up and she'll say "The Bible tells us to eat meat."<br><br><br><br>
My friend has large tattoo on her arm and I've considered saying "Leviticus 19:28 says that we're not supposed to have tattoos, so I guess we'll be going to hell together!" or "Deuteronomy 22:23 says that if a virgin is raped in the city, she is at fault because she didn't cry out loud enough and both her and the rapist are stoned to death. Do you believe that too?"<br><br><br><br>
That last one might be too nasty though. I've also thought of "Get a Bible and show me where it says that."<br><br><br><br>
Does anyone have any responses (both serious and sarcastic) that I can say?<br><br><br><br>
Thanks!
 

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I like the "show me where it says that in the Bible" answer.<br><br><br><br>
Besides that, there are several Biblical passages that support a vegetarian diet. Start with the Garden of Eden. Everyone knows what tree Adam and Eve were told not to eat from, but do you remember what they were told they were supposed to eat? Everything from the rest of the trees. Killing animals for food isn't mentioned there. Adam and Eve were vegetarians.<br><br><br><br>
I know I've seen a Christian vegetarian web site, and that has a lot more detail about the Biblical passages that support a vegetarian diet. There are quotes in the Bible about eating animals being allowed, but it's certainly never stated that it's mandatory.<br><br><br><br>
--Fromper<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/juggle.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":juggle:">
 

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“And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat [food].” – Genesis 1:29<br><br><br><br>
Before "the fall" people were vegetarians. it was God's perfect plan for mankind. After adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden their descendants began to eat meat. So you could say it is in Grace that we were meant to be vegetarians and in sin that we are meat eaters.<br><br><br><br>
I personally believe that the afterlife will be vegetarian because that is how it was in the beginiing and I can't see killing animals for food in Heaven.
 

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I know this doesn't actually have anything to do with vegetarianism, but the point it makes is the same...<br><br><a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp" target="_blank">http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp</a><br><br><br><br>
(and ignore the fact that it's on snopes and wasn't ever actually sent anywhere.. point remains the same there too)
 

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I'm not up on my christian knowledge because well yes to me it's all kind of stupid. But didn't God/Jesus/random other relgious figureheads also tell us to be all accepting of others and to respect life? How is judging ones veganism or eating meat accepting others and respecting life?<br><br><br><br>
Thankfully for them no one has ever tried the whole 'religion tells us to eat meat' thing. God help them if they do.
 

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"Get a Bible and show me where it says that." is perfect. If she can show you, read it in context (not just the one scripture -- the Bible is not a set of isolated philosophical quotes.) God gave us permission to eat meat. He did not command us to consume it.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tymps</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I have a friend/coworker who is a former vegetarian. She was a vegetarian for about 5 years, then contracted mono. Her doctor told her that in order to recover, she needed to eat meat, so she went back to being an omni.<br><br><br></div>
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Wow. What a doc. Dumbest thing Ive heard in awhile. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/no.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":no:">
 

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I would probably say "So?" or "And?"<br><br><br><br>
But another answer would be, like some others said, "Show me where it says that."
 

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actually, the bible says that we can eat meat, not that we must or should. it says that we can.<br><br><br><br>
it is up to the individual to decide if it is right for them; it's not expressly a moral issue within christianity.
 

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Ask where exactly in the bible it says that.<br><br><br><br>
They will usually stumble or will point towards: a)after the flood, or b)peter being told to kill and eat<br><br><br><br>
Peter's dream with the animals was a metaphor about sharing the gospel with the gentiles. He even talk about it a paragraph or so later as that is what was meant by it.<br><br><br><br>
After the flood, we were permitted to eat animals, but this was the same time the fear of man was placed in their hearts. It obviously wasn't God's ideal. Also at this time we were given laws about food. Such as no eating dolphins,pigs,etc. And God taught us to respect the animals that we were to eat.<br><br><br><br>
Throw in a dominion of love argument before they throw out "We were given dominion!!!111". Well yeah, we were, but how about we try to mimic God in our rule?<br><br><br><br><br><br>
My favorite verse to mention to Christians trying to use the bible as an excuse to subjugate and torture the animals is Ecclesiastes 3:19-21.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"<br></div>
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<br>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Habakkuk 2</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><span style="font-size:xx-small;"><span style="color:#C0C0C0;">2 Then the LORD replied:<br><br>
"Write down the revelation<br><br>
and make it plain on tablets<br><br>
so that a herald may run with it.<br><br><br><br>
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;<br><br>
it speaks of the end<br><br>
and will not prove false.<br><br>
Though it linger, wait for it;<br><br>
it [c] will certainly come and will not delay.<br><br><br><br>
4 "See, he is puffed up;<br><br>
his desires are not upright—<br><br>
but the righteous will live by his faith [d] -<br><br><br><br>
5 indeed, wine betrays him;<br><br>
he is arrogant and never at rest.<br><br>
Because he is as greedy as the grave [e]<br><br>
and like death is never satisfied,<br><br>
he gathers to himself all the nations<br><br>
and takes captive all the peoples.<br><br><br><br>
6 "Will not all of them taunt him with ridicule and scorn, saying,<br><br>
" 'Woe to him who piles up stolen goods<br><br>
and makes himself wealthy by extortion!<br><br>
How long must this go on?'<br><br><br><br>
7 Will not your debtors [f] suddenly arise?<br><br>
Will they not wake up and make you tremble?<br><br>
Then you will become their victim.<br><br><br><br>
8 Because you have plundered many nations,<br><br>
the peoples who are left will plunder you.<br><br>
For you have shed man's blood;<br><br>
you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.<br><br><br><br>
9 "Woe to him who builds his realm by unjust gain<br><br>
to set his nest on high,<br><br>
to escape the clutches of ruin!<br><br><br><br>
10 You have plotted the ruin of many peoples,<br><br>
shaming your own house and forfeiting your life.<br><br><br><br>
11 The stones of the wall will cry out,<br><br>
and the beams of the woodwork will echo it.<br><br><br><br>
12 "Woe to him who builds a city with bloodshed<br><br>
and establishes a town by crime!<br><br><br><br>
13 Has not the LORD Almighty determined<br><br>
that the people's labor is only fuel for the fire,<br><br>
that the nations exhaust themselves for nothing?<br><br><br><br>
14 For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,<br><br>
as the waters cover the sea.<br><br><br><br>
15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,<br><br>
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk,<br><br>
so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.<br><br><br><br>
16 You will be filled with shame instead of glory.<br><br>
Now it is your turn! Drink and be exposed [g] !<br><br>
The cup from the LORD's right hand is coming around to you,<br><br>
and disgrace will cover your glory.<br><br><br><br>
17 The violence you have done to Lebanon will overwhelm you,</span></span><br><br><b>and your destruction of animals will terrify you.</b><br><br><span style="font-size:xx-small;"><span style="color:#C0C0C0;">For you have shed man's blood;<br><br>
you have destroyed lands and cities and everyone in them.<br><br><br><br>
18 "Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it?<br><br>
Or an image that teaches lies?<br><br>
For he who makes it trusts in his own creation;<br><br>
he makes idols that cannot speak.<br><br><br><br>
19 Woe to him who says to wood, 'Come to life!'<br><br>
Or to lifeless stone, 'Wake up!'<br><br>
Can it give guidance?<br><br>
It is covered with gold and silver;<br><br>
there is no breath in it.<br><br><br><br>
20 But the LORD is in his holy temple;<br><br>
let all the earth be silent before him."</span></span><br></div>
</div>
<br><i>emphasis mine</i><br><br><br><br><br><br>
In the middle of these woes in this prophecy about some of the many evil acts of humanity - between getting people drunk to seduce them, being violent, and shedding human blood, it lists the destruction of animals.<br><br><br><br>
I think our treatment of life on this planet is pretty important.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jeezycreezy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I've never read the bible. I prefer nonfiction. Sorry. I can't help you.</div>
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I'm a reform Jew, which in the American vernacular is another term for an atheist, but I keep meaning to read the Bible. I also want to read the Koran and The Analects of Confucious. Those are probably the three most influential books in human history, so I figure everyone should read them at some point, even if you don't believe a word of any of it. I just haven't gotten around to actually doing so yet.<br><br><br><br>
--Fromper<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/juggle.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":juggle:">
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks guys!<br><br><br><br>
I should have rephrased my first post. My friend doesn't really say that the Bible tells us we must eat meat, she says the Bible tells us that animals were put here to be eaten. That's what I need help replying to.<br><br><br><br>
When my veganism comes up in conversation, I'll say "I believe that animals were not put on earth to be eaten." She'll ask "Then why are they here? Why are cows/chickens/whatever here? If they're not here to be eaten, what is their purpose?" I've tried to say "Well, okay, if they're here to be eaten, why not eat dogs and cats?" She shrugs and says "Yeah, why not?" as if she's considered eating a dog or a cat.
 

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How is your veganism coming up in the conversation? What are the chances that anything you say will change her mind? Or are you just trying to save face?<br><br><br><br>
The Bible implies that it is ok to eat meat, (as ZB said) but not that we must. It has a similar stance on slavery. (which people not very long ago also defended with the Bible.)<br><br><br><br>
In the end, we each make our own individual moral choices, even if that choice is to do what we think the Bible says without question.
 

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A lot of good points were already brought up.<br><br><br><br>
When God speaks to Noah after the flood, two considerations come to mind: 1) the post-flood world was an unusual situation, with few food sources available, 2) God's concession to let humans eat meat sounds very much like a lamentation, with a host of caveats and stern warnings about a horribly degraded relationship between humanity and the rest of Creation.<br><br><br><br>
Can this person really not think of any reason for animals' existence other than to eat them? At one time the exploiters of Africans claimed that black people were merely here to serve white people. Their imaginations were similarly stunted and corrupted. Does God really want us to be killers? Does a God of boundless love want us to be engaged in inflicting suffering and death day in and day out for most of our lives? Is that the world He envisioned? How's this for a reason for animals' existence: They are part of Creation. God loves them. They are our friends. Imagine the unbearable loneliness if the animals did not share the Earth with us. They have intrinsic beauty and intrinsic value independent of human use. The birds of the air, the fishes in the sea, the bees at the flowers, and the tiny voles burrowing beneath the leaves - these are the very face of God.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tymps</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Thanks guys!<br><br><br><br>
I should have rephrased my first post. My friend doesn't really say that the Bible tells us we must eat meat, she says the Bible tells us that animals were put here to be eaten. That's what I need help replying to.<br><br><br><br>
When my veganism comes up in conversation, I'll say "I believe that animals were not put on earth to be eaten." She'll ask "Then why are they here? Why are cows/chickens/whatever here? If they're not here to be eaten, what is their purpose?" I've tried to say "Well, okay, if they're here to be eaten, why not eat dogs and cats?" She shrugs and says "Yeah, why not?" as if she's considered eating a dog or a cat.</div>
</div>
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Does she believe that humans aren't animals? You could point out that humans would not win in a fight with a lot of animals (elephants, lions, antelopes, zebras, horses, rhinoceros, whales all come to mind), especially before there were guns and modern technology. If we didn't have guns, electricity, or houses with locks and doors (essentially, protection) we'd be the ones being eaten.<br><br><br><br>
But then again, a lot of animals are eaten by other animals, like hawks eating mice, bears eating fish, etc. It's a hard question to answer. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thinking.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":think:"> Maybe you should just get around it by saying "You can believe that, but I believe this".<br><br><br><br>
An animal's purpose is the same as ours, at a basic level; to survive, breed and die. (The breeding is, of course, optional).
 

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"There is a moral law in my conscience that tells me not to eat meat, and that law is higher than any ink on any paper".
 

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I've heard somewher, don't quote me cuase I can't find the resource, but that in the beginning "meat" only mean food or the "meat" of fruit, not animal meat.<br><br><br><br>
If she isn't going around living up to all the completely outdated guidlines in the bible then why use this as a stupid defense? My thought... is that she has guilt around her meat-eating practices. You'd be surprised about how people really feel about this in their own hearts but would never say so.<br><br><br><br>
My best response to things like this, and a lot more, is to say that I don't eat animals for moral, environmental, and health reasons and that it isn't neccessary to eat them for survival anymore. Back in biblical times it was considered more neccessary...<br><br><br><br>
Hope that helps <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Beachbnny</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I've heard somewher, don't quote me cuase I can't find the resource, but that in the beginning "meat" only mean food or the "meat" of fruit, not animal meat.</div>
</div>
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I've read this, too, perhaps in books by Norm Phelps or Rev. J.R. Hyland. My understanding is that the orginal Hebrew has been skewed in later translations of the bible to support popular exploitations. The original Hebrew bible also specified that animals had a soul, but subsequent humanocentric translations used separate words for the spiritual essence of humans and animals, so that only the former had a soul.<br><br><br><br>
Of course, people will use seemingly anything - including religious texts or something they conveniently make up - as rationalization for behaviors that are wrong and cause preventable harm, but that also give some sort of superficial pleasure, or are a habit, or about which they're defensive. People use these rationalizations as an excuse to not change, or to mask their fear of change, or fear of self-incrimination or cognitive dissonance.<br><br><br><br>
At the very least, God will not mind someone being vegetarian. It's fairly easy to do these days, and it reduces one's participation in causing suffering and untimely death. I don't see how God could mind that.
 
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