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this does seem to be helpful to start another thread for...<br><br><br><br>
warning- this all science type stuff <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> for those of you not int'rested..<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Good point. So are you saying that cooked food breaks down differently than uncooked food? Im not terribly familiar with microbiology so please bear with me. I know that decomposition is mostly due to bacteria. Do you think its the rate of decomposition, which would be faster with cooked foods (Im guessing), that plays a role in creating compost etc? Or is it the bacteria? Different bacteria?</div>
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gaya,<br><br><br><br>
I really don't know what happens with it, but I consistently notice that cooked food always molds, and raw food almost always composts without rotting. I haven't thought or read much about what exactl causes a thing to rot as opposed to continuing the ripening process without growing mold.<br><br>
It doesn't seem to be speed of decomposition... because then the cooked food would just turn to soil.. rather than molding. One clear difference is that raw foods would have enzymes that would continue the ripening process... but the cooked foods would have no enzymes left.<br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">It is true that enzymes or more specifically a part of an enzyme will fit into a part of what ever substrate, like a puzzle. The role of stomach enzymes, like pepsin, is to unravel or change the conformation of the protein, to break peptide bonds etc. Acid (like hydrochloric acid in your stomach), heat (radiation), and certain metals can do the same the same thing. By the time a cooked protein makes it to your stomach, a good part of the job is done, which is why its a bit easier to digest cooked protein. Its less work. For example, and not that I support this, the amino acids from cooked egg whites are considered to be very bioavailabile because the protein is already denatured. Here is a good read about protein. <a href="http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...structure.html" target="_blank">http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...structure.html</a></div>
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Okay, that's what I thought I understood. What I was meaning is that I'd heard that cooking actually deforms the shape of amino acids (and possible carbs and fatty cells too). I don't have a solid reference for this (and not interested in digging.. my car works fine, so i don't bother to study the engine <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> ) (I first heard it from this newsgroup <a href="http://alt-news.net/alt.food.vegan.science/" target="_blank">http://alt-news.net/alt.food.vegan.science/</a> )<br><br>
But IF cooking does degrade the shape of amino acids, then it seems likely that they wouldn't 'fit' as efficiently with our bodie's enzymes. If that's true, then it would likely result in less digestion.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
[QUPTE]With the energy information, I was thinking more of the energy itself, not the form of matter that the body uses (in biochemical models), ATP or any other. It seems that there's information present in order for foods to be grown as they are.<br><br><br><br><i>Im not sure what you are trying to say here.</i><br><br><br><br>
There's dna information in foods that are why what they are... the dna makes a tomato plant grow tomatoes, or a pear tree grow pears. the dna is complex instructions, and is specific information. you see all the different varieties of tomato, or what genetic engineering can affect, and the dna from each produces the same fruit each time. it's specific.<br><br><br><br>
but the dna doesn't exist by itself... the dna is created from smaller parts, nucleotides (adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine). There is some reason why these parts combine precisely to form that precise dna sequence.<br><br><br><br>
Annd, those nucleotides are created by smaller units...a sugar, nitrogen, and phosphates. There's something to directly them to organize in an exact way to create each type of nucleotide.<br><br><br><br>
And obviously sugar, nitrogens and phosphate is composed of smaller units. And those units need to be organized in a precise way in order to for the sugar or other components.<br><br>
And this goes down to the molecule, atom, quark level, and further. It's a long sequence of many steps. it's a precise process that requires precise instructions of how each of the building blocks will be created, and combined with others<br><br><br><br>
blabla bla but here's a link that shows what dna is componsed of<br><br><a href="http://www.blc.arizona.edu/Molecular..._Tutorial.HTML" target="_blank">http://www.blc.arizona.edu/Molecular..._Tutorial.HTML</a> ie. what every plant and animal (ie all food) is composed of at the deeper levels (but this site doesn't continue even deeper)<br><br><br><br><i>Again, Im not sure what you are trying to say here lol. Sorry. If you wouldnt mind being a bit more specific, Id appreciate it. I cant tell if you want to discuss physics, genetics, or just plain ol biochem and while they are all related, as everything is, it would be easier for me if we focused on one thing. eta. great site btw</i>..[/QUOTE]<br><br><br><br>
okay, if the topics welcome... It'sa tad scattered as I'm still trying to combine and connect a few areas, without even fully understand each area..<br><br><br><br>
What i'm describing and wondering, is that everything involved in 'health' and 'nutrition' are made up of tiny building blocks of quarks. Western Science is solid on that. And that those quarks are obviously made of something also, energy in some form.<br><br>
It's clear that there are an incredible number of levels (from energy---all the way to molecules-- all the way to building an entire fruit tree or wheat shoot), and that each level requires for the building blocks to be combined and oriented in a very precise and consistent manner. The complexity at the dna level alone is amazing, and it's so specific as to make tiny changes in the size, shape, color of fruit... and genetic engineering (bad bad :b) even shows what appears to be infinite number of ways to manipulate dna. Dna are very specific instructions of how the next level up will operate and develop... that is a lot.<br><br><br><br>
So my wondering is can cooking cause changes at any of the many instructional levels? Like, can cooking (heat) cause changes to the information that dictates how atoms are formed as molecules?<br><br><br><br>
Cooking can char food, which is covered by science, as creating carcinogens.. creating something that wasn't there before. Or was there, but was restructured differently after being heated to a certain degree and amount of time. Nothing was added to the food, other than heat (heat= an atmosphere of faster moving molecules and atoms) and that caused material/energy of the food to reform into a different material (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons)<br><br><br><br>
This made me wonder if heat is only cause by faster-moving atoms and molecules, but that the quark and energy levels don't move faster.<br><br>
Here is a page with a way cool photo of heat difference within a bal that's been bounced<br><br><a href="http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu//cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/heat.html" target="_blank">http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu//...rmal/heat.html</a><br><br><br><br><br><br>
I'm leaving out the whole area of that matter is energy, and energy are vibrations (or something like that), and questions on if heat(faster moving atoms, and maybe faster moving quarks, or maybe energy itself) can change those vibrations.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
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i'm planning some basic experiements i hope i'll get to do, at the level of the affects of boiled water on plants growth, compared to uncooked water.<br><br><br><br><i>Sounds interesting, tho you're going to hurt your plants</i></div>
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Oh, do you have reason to think so?? I am 'expecting' a difference, but I don't know yet of any reason why to 'know' there will be a difference?<br><br><br><br><br><br>
it's been a pleasure gaya <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> will be back for more later
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jonjan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Oh, do you have reason to think so?? I am 'expecting' a difference, but I don't know yet of any reason why to 'know' there will be a difference?<br><br><br><br><br><br>
it's been a pleasure gaya <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> will be back for more later</div>
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I will certainly respond to the rest of you post later...lol i've cracked a bottle of wine so not now. But, as silly as it may seem, i feel so badly when my plants aren't doing well. Of course high temps will affect and damage their root structure. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":("><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
Why wouldn't you assume and understand that high temps will prevent growth?
 

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well, i'm going to respond drunk lol, what the hay.<br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jonjan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
this does seem to be helpful to start another thread for...<br><br><br><br>
warning- this all science type stuff <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> for those of you not int'rested..<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
gaya,<br><br>
One clear difference is that raw foods would have enzymes that would continue the ripening process... but the cooked foods would have no enzymes left.</div>
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ohhh, excellent point. maybe the enzymes in plants play a significant role in decomposition. that's an exciting point! this is definately worthy of a bit of research...which you should do lol.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Okay, that's what I thought I understood. What I was meaning is that I'd heard that cooking actually deforms the shape of amino acids (and possible carbs and fatty cells too). I don't have a solid reference for this (and not interested in digging.. my car works fine, so i don't bother to study the engine <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> ) (I first heard it from this newsgroup <a href="http://alt-news.net/alt.food.vegan.science/" target="_blank">http://alt-news.net/alt.food.vegan.science/</a> )<br><br>
But IF cooking does degrade the shape of amino acids, then it seems likely that they wouldn't 'fit' as efficiently with our bodie's enzymes. If that's true, then it would likely result in less digestion.</div>
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you're still not getting it tho. hmmm....we could have a whole digestion lesson here but it would be far easier if you took the time to educate yourself. i'm being a bit lazy here but you should brief yourself on some basic biochemistry. with that...i'll stop for now and perhaps come back and edit later. cheers jon <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>remilard</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
if you want to talk about science this thread will have to go in the heap</div>
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this is why i suggested some type of science forum (ho hum) in our community/suggestions forum.
 

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I know nothing about this subject at all--I just wanted to say that raw berries get moldy.<br><br><br><br>
This is interesting though--Now that I'm thinking about it, berries are the only raw food I can think of that actually molds. That's never occurred to me before (probably because soft rotting foods gross me out more than mold does).<br><br><br><br>
Actually, I think the skin on oranges can get moldy too. I can't recall ever seeing mold on a raw vegetable, though.
 

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geez, i've had nearly every kind of fruit and vegetable that i've ever bought mold on me--from salad greens to pears. just about everything at one time or another.<br><br><br><br>
banana mold is interesting. . .
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jonjan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Okay, that's what I thought I understood. What I was meaning is that I'd heard that cooking actually deforms the shape of amino acids (and possible carbs and fatty cells too).</div>
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Ok, we'll try this again. What you probably heard is that cooking deforms the shape of protein. From what I understand, cooking does not deform the shape amino acids. Here is a pic of protein structure. <a href="http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/2513/protstruct4143yn8.jpg" target="_blank">http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/2...uct4143yn8.jpg</a><br><br><br><br>
Protein is made up of amino acids. Here's a pic of a general amino acid. <a href="http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211.fall2000.web.projects/Danielle%20Arnold/Figure1.jpg" target="_blank">http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211.fall...ld/Figure1.jpg</a><br><br><br><br>
The R group determines the amino acid. Here is a pic of tyrosine. <a href="http://www.chem4kids.com/files/aminoacids/art/tyrosine.gif" target="_blank">http://www.chem4kids.com/files/amino...t/tyrosine.gif</a><br><br><br><br>
The side chain or R group is what makes this amino acid tryosine. Groups of amino acids and their bonds constitute a protein. Cooking denatures (changes the shape) protein. The bonds that hold the amino acids together (look at protein structure pic) are broken when cooked, not the amino acids themselves (to the best of my knowledge).<br><br><br><br>
Our body has some capability of amino acid remodeling, which is why we have essential and non-essential amino acids. I hope this makes sense to you.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I don't have a solid reference for this (and not interested in digging.. my car works fine, so i don't bother to study the engine <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"> ) (I first heard it from this newsgroup <a href="http://alt-news.net/alt.food.vegan.science/" target="_blank">http://alt-news.net/alt.food.vegan.science/</a> )<br><br>
But IF cooking does degrade the shape of amino acids, then it seems likely that they wouldn't 'fit' as efficiently with our bodie's enzymes. If that's true, then it would likely result in less digestion.</div>
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This is basically untrue. If anything, cooking enables digestion. I also think everyone should know how their car works. I mean that litteraly! From our cars, to our bodies to our computers.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">There's dna information in foods that are why what they are... the dna makes a tomato plant grow tomatoes, or a pear tree grow pears. the dna is complex instructions, and is specific information. you see all the different varieties of tomato, or what genetic engineering can affect, and the dna from each produces the same fruit each time. it's specific.<br><br><br><br>
but the dna doesn't exist by itself... the dna is created from smaller parts, nucleotides (adenine, guanine, cytosine and thymine). There is some reason why these parts combine precisely to form that precise dna sequence.<br><br><br><br>
Annd, those nucleotides are created by smaller units...a sugar, nitrogen, and phosphates. There's something to directly them to organize in an exact way to create each type of nucleotide.<br><br><br><br>
And obviously sugar, nitrogens and phosphate is composed of smaller units. And those units need to be organized in a precise way in order to for the sugar or other components.<br><br>
And this goes down to the molecule, atom, quark level, and further. It's a long sequence of many steps. it's a precise process that requires precise instructions of how each of the building blocks will be created, and combined with others<br><br><br><br>
blabla bla but here's a link that shows what dna is componsed of<br><br><a href="http://www.blc.arizona.edu/Molecular..._Tutorial.HTML" target="_blank">http://www.blc.arizona.edu/Molecular..._Tutorial.HTML</a> ie. what every plant and animal (ie all food) is composed of at the deeper levels (but this site doesn't continue even deeper)</div>
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Ok.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">okay, if the topics welcome... It'sa tad scattered as I'm still trying to combine and connect a few areas, without even fully understand each area..<br><br><br><br>
What i'm describing and wondering, is that everything involved in 'health' and 'nutrition' are made up of tiny building blocks of quarks. Western Science is solid on that. And that those quarks are obviously made of something also, energy in some form.<br><br>
It's clear that there are an incredible number of levels (from energy---all the way to molecules-- all the way to building an entire fruit tree or wheat shoot), and that each level requires for the building blocks to be combined and oriented in a very precise and consistent manner. The complexity at the dna level alone is amazing, and it's so specific as to make tiny changes in the size, shape, color of fruit... and genetic engineering (bad bad :b) even shows what appears to be infinite number of ways to manipulate dna. Dna are very specific instructions of how the next level up will operate and develop... that is a lot.<br><br><br><br>
So my wondering is can cooking cause changes at any of the many instructional levels? Like, can cooking (heat) cause changes to the information that dictates how atoms are formed as molecules?</div>
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hmmm...well, a protein is a product. Using your car analogy...you can destroy a car but that doesn't mean you destroyed the blue print for making the car and of course, the car will no longer do the job it was intended to do.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Cooking can char food, which is covered by science, as creating carcinogens.. creating something that wasn't there before. Or was there, but was restructured differently after being heated to a certain degree and amount of time. Nothing was added to the food, other than heat (heat= an atmosphere of faster moving molecules and atoms) and that caused material/energy of the food to reform into a different material (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons)</div>
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Ok, i can see your point here and it's a good point and a very interesting way of looking it.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">This made me wonder if heat is only cause by faster-moving atoms and molecules, but that the quark and energy levels don't move faster.</div>
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I'm not really familiar with sub-atomic physics. I'm not sure what you mean by quark and energy levels not moving faster.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Here is a page with a way cool photo of heat difference within a bal that's been bounced<br><br><a href="http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu//cosmic_classroom/light_lessons/thermal/heat.html" target="_blank">http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu//...rmal/heat.html</a><br><br><br><br>
I'm leaving out the whole area of that matter is energy, and energy are vibrations (or something like that), and questions on if heat(faster moving atoms, and maybe faster moving quarks, or maybe energy itself) can change those vibrations.</div>
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"energy" is a difficult topic for me. I'm sure we have a few physicists here on VB and it would be great if they would pipe in, another reason for a science section.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Oh, do you have reason to think so?? I am 'expecting' a difference, but I don't know yet of any reason why to 'know' there will be a difference?</div>
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I'm assuming the heat will destroy the plant's root structure. You don't think it would?<br><br><br><br>
later jon <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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I learned in bio class that only extreme temperatures can break apart amino acid structure. And there's special things that repair them. I forget what all that is called... I dropped the class.<br><br><br><br>
Note: this post is pointless.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jonjan</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
What i'm describing and wondering, is that everything involved in 'health' and 'nutrition' are made up of tiny building blocks of quarks. Western Science is solid on that. And that those quarks are obviously made of something also, energy in some form.</div>
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What is Western Science solid on?<br><br><br><br>
You wouldn't have by chance, watched that movie, "What the Bleep do we know?" have you? You seem to be getting into some of the mumbo jumbo from that movie. If you've seen it, you might want to read what others have said about it. You can start by reading the wikipedia page on it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know%21%3F" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_th..._We_Know%21%3F</a><br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
So my wondering is can cooking cause changes at any of the many instructional levels? Like, can cooking (heat) cause changes to the information that dictates how atoms are formed as molecules?<br><br><br><br>
...This made me wonder if heat is only cause by faster-moving atoms and molecules, but that the quark and energy levels don't move faster.</div>
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What instructional levels beyond DNA?<br><br>
Can heat change atoms? Generally speaking, makes them move around faster. Sometimes energy can cause electrons to jump to higher levels and then when they come back down, they release energy (think glow in the dark toys). I don't know about quarks. Really high energy can split atoms, but then you are in nuclear bomb territory. You aren't going to split any atoms or change them in any important ways by cooking your food. Unless you cook it in a nuclear reactor. I think any changes to electron levels or quarks would be reversed when the food cools off.
 

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I been wanting to see that movie lol. I imagine that it's similar to Capra's books etc.<br><br><br><br>
eta: re:instructional levels...i'm guessing that jon is referring to strong nuclear force. I don't know if I would refer to that attraction as instructions tho. eta: who knows, i don't know anything about subatomic particles but i'm sure interested in learning.
 
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