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Discussion Starter #1
Tame:<br><br><br><br>
I'm curious (honestly..this is a interesting subject for me, I was sad to see the "cultural stereotypes" thread go awry) as to how you differentiate between an comment/action that is offensive, and someone who's just super thin-skinned.<br><br><br><br>
That is, you're saying that the minority gets to decide what's offensive to the minority to which they belong. But do you mean "minority" as in a community, or as in the individual in each situation.<br><br><br><br>
I would not have made a comment about dancing to someone I didn't know well. However, with a friend or coworker who knew that I was just joking..sure. One of my friends used to tease me often about my flat, white-girl hair. A coworker giggles at a potluck about her greens not going over well with our primarily white staff. And don't even get me started on the conversations we'd have at work (people of multiple races/backgrounds) about bootays.<br><br><br><br>
I find this a fascinating area, because I think we've become so uber-PC in America sometimes that we have to pretend we're all the same (which is incorrect)...and not just race, but gender, geographic location, whatever.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>IamJen</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Tame:<br><br><br><br>
I'm curious (honestly..this is a interesting subject for me, I was sad to see the "cultural stereotypes" thread go awry) as to how you differentiate between an comment/action that is offensive, and someone who's just super thin-skinned.</div>
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I don't think it is possible to differentiate. If the person is thin-skinned, all you can do is just avoid anything that is even borderline.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
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That is, you're saying that the minority gets to decide what's offensive to the minority to which they belong. But do you mean "minority" as in a community, or as in the individual in each situation.</div>
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I guess both, kind of. Any given individual has the right to be offended, the question is then should that right be respected. That is where the community as a whole comes in, and it is up to a given group to determine what they collectively will or will not accept.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
I would not have made a comment about dancing to someone I didn't know well. However, with a friend or coworker who knew that I was just joking..sure. One of my friends used to tease me often about my flat, white-girl hair. A coworker giggles at a potluck about her greens not going over well with our primarily white staff. And don't even get me started on the conversations we'd have at work (people of multiple races/backgrounds) about bootays.</div>
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in most situations, Skylark's comment would not have been considered offensive. However, when someone is already on edge or upset, it's best to shy away from anything like that, particularly if you don't know them well.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
I find this a fascinating area, because I think we've become so uber-PC in America sometimes that we have to pretend we're all the same (which is incorrect)...and not just race, but gender, geographic location, whatever.</div>
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I think most would agree I'm not exactly PC. I don't worry that much about offending others. If someone lets me know I have crossed a line that they at least perceive to exist, I do try to look at it constructively and put myself in their shoes to understand why they are offended. What I don't do is ask people who will most likely share my opinion or understand the other person's situation if I am right or wrong.
 

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As the other thread has been closed for some reason, I would like to continue the discussion here.<br><br><br><br>
IAJ - I responded in the other thread. If you so choose, please move our discussion here using your modly powers.
 

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Tame, I had no idea you were black. Is that you in the avatar?!<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/huh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":confused:"><br><br><br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">
 

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Skylark closed the other thread for a reason-and while it is an interesting topic, we are are going to give everyone a little time to cool off before restarting this converstation.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
<<just woke up and has to catch up for a few. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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The mods have decided to re-open this thread.<br><br><br><br>
I had decided to close my own thread yesterday because I felt the good, important topic of racism and stereotyping should continue, but the thread had become too much about me and my alleged motivations for starting it. Those who wanted to carry on the discussion may do so in this thread or others. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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Well, Skylark...you brought up a subject discussing your actions and motivations in a particular instance, and their possibly (or not) racist connotations. I think when you bring up a personal situation and your motivations and actions, people will naturally discuss the situation and your action and motivations. I just looked through the thread and didn't see where it had become anywhere near heated enough to close.<br><br><br><br>
I did think it was an interesting thread. I think the woman felt like you weren't hearing her (which you actually said you were tired of listening). You may or may not have used some sort of body language which she interpreted as neck rolling. Or perhaps she was trying to pick a fight because she felt you weren't listening. In any case, that doesn't seem like the wisest thing to have said. You obviously didn't know the woman well enough to care about what she was talking about. You might have said something more honest to her before the comment, "Sorry I don't have the time to listen right now, I've got a lot of work to do," rather than standing there thinking...good lord how long will she go on with this story. Your body language probably in some sense gave your disinterest away. She definitely overreacted...<br><br><br><br>
I think that is often where problems happen with regard to racist or stereotyping coments. If a person of a minority group thinks you don't really give a crap about them...but then you want to make race related jokes...well hell, that's just annoying. It's kind of like you are trying to join (in this case) the 'black club' by joking. That sounds silly. What I mean is that you aren't willing to do the work of getting to know a person on a real level...but you are willing to make jokes about their ethnicity in order to feel 'friendly' with that person. It's laziness really on the part of whoever does the joking (whatever their race).<br><br><br><br>
Yesterday I was talking to a good friend on the phone, and I mentioned to her that (having just cut my hair) I was covered in white people hair, and what that meant in general was that it was stiff and straight and felt like needles sticking into my skin. We can laugh and joke on a personal, and occasionally racial level because I know her well and we talk daily.<br><br><br><br>
I don't really feel that the problem is PC behavior. I feel the problem is that in general, as I mentioned above, we are still unwilling to do the work of real relationships with people of other races/cultures/religions, but we are willing to make jokes disparaging them...or their history. We won't have honest, peaceful discussions about race, but we make bitter jokes that are in general based on a profound lack of understanding. I am not talking about you here skylark....but more generally speaking about these types of issues.<br><br><br><br>
So I don't think we need to use certain language and jokes until they loose their sting, or whatever was said. I think people need to stop being flip about things they really don't understand. And instead work towards real understanding of others.<br><br><br><br>
On this note, I agree with Tame (ewwwww)<br><br><br><br>
B
 

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i just saw a photo of the two arrested phoenix serial killers, they are both caucasian (judging from their names even of german ancestry, how embarrassing for me <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/blush.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":eek:"> ). however, in the media i read the police were looking for a black guy as an alleged witness said the killer was an african american ...
 

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What do you call a black person who flies and airplane?<br><br>
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A pilot, you racist, f*ck!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Rotting</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
What do you call a black person who flies and airplane?<br><br>
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A pilot, you racist, f*ck!</div>
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<br><span><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/laugh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":lol:"> Good one!</span>
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I just now moved the comments from the other thread. I was busy having real-life fun this weekend. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tame</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't think it is possible to differentiate. If the person is thin-skinned, all you can do is just avoid anything that is even borderline.</div>
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See, this the hard part. There seems to be no responsibility on the part of the offended. But maybe it's the reaction after being offended that's important. Someone could take that opportunity to enlighten the other party maybe. (still not sure about the speaker bearing all the responsibility)<br><br><br><br>
Also (treading on more sensitive areas here), there seems to be a double standard between white and non-white. That is, I think sometimes whites are expected to brush off racially insensitive comments more than their minority counterparts. With regard to myself, it's not that much of an issue...I am who I am. I'm thinking in particular of a former supervisor I worked with. There were these two assistant directors...one black, one white. The supervisor who is black, took a lighthearted view of race, and occasionally participated in the "booty discussions" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"> etc. The A.D. who is white felt really uncomfortable, but never felt like she could say anything because the other gal was "just kidding around" (which she was). However, if the situation were reversed and the black woman is the one who had felt uncomfortable, it would've been unacceptable and possible even earned the white woman some sort of disciplinary action.<br><br><br><br>
The imbalance doesn't really bother me a lot, but I do wonder how much of it is just my perspective as someone who is white. If there is some truth to the double standard..why is that okay? I'm not asking for a definitive answer, btw. Heh.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tame</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
I guess both, kind of. Any given individual has the right to be offended, the question is then should that right be respected. That is where the community as a whole comes in, and it is up to a given group to determine what they collectively will or will not accept.</div>
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Yeah. See that's more what personal philosophy would be as well. There are certain statements/phrases that would generally be considered offensive by a community as a whole. In those cases, the speaker/offender should know better. Otherwise, the one who is offended maybe should cut the speaker a bit of slack.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tame</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
I think most would agree I'm not exactly PC. I don't worry that much about offending others. If someone lets me know I have crossed a line that they at least perceive to exist, I do try to look at it constructively and put myself in their shoes to understand why they are offended.</div>
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Oh, the mods hear that all the time..."That Tame..he's just so obsessed with not offending anyone" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"><br><br><br><br>
I wonder sometimes too, how much environment plays a factor in one's sensitivity. That is, if you're around a very diverse group of people, especially as a child/growing up, are you less sensitive than someone who grew up in a homogenous community.
 

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Jen, I don't think the double standard is okay (meaning it isn't fair). However, I do think it is accepted because of white majority here in the US. To poke fun at the people in power has always (in various countries and governments) been seen as acceptable, where-as to poke fun at the minority contingent has always seemed like poor sportsmanship.<br><br><br><br>
B
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah. I suspect the (less than glorious) history of black/white relations plays a factor as well.<br><br><br><br>
Geezus, I just noticed all my typos in the previous post. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/blush.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":eek:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>IamJen</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br><br><br>
See, this the hard part. There seems to be no responsibility on the part of the offended. But maybe it's the reaction after being offended that's important. Someone could take that opportunity to enlighten the other party maybe. (still not sure about the speaker bearing all the responsibility)</div>
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I see what you mean, but the problem is, once someone has become offended, justifiably or not, it's hard to get past their defenses and discuss the matter rationally.<br><br>
I do agree that just because something bothers you or "doesn't sound right" is no reason to fly off the handle.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
Also (treading on more sensitive areas here), there seems to be a double standard between white and non-white. That is, I think sometimes whites are expected to brush off racially insensitive comments more than their minority counterparts. With regard to myself, it's not that much of an issue...I am who I am. I'm thinking in particular of a former supervisor I worked with. There were these two assistant directors...one black, one white. The supervisor who is black, took a lighthearted view of race, and occasionally participated in the "booty discussions" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"> etc. The A.D. who is white felt really uncomfortable, but never felt like she could say anything because the other gal was "just kidding around" (which she was). However, if the situation were reversed and the black woman is the one who had felt uncomfortable, it would've been unacceptable and possible even earned the white woman some sort of disciplinary action.</div>
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I agree, and I do think that whites should not brush off the racially insensitive comments either. I work with a lot of kids in basketball, and there is an assumption by some white kids that they cannot be as athletic as black kids, which I find bothersome on a variety of levels. I have heard black coaches make what I think are horribly offensive comments about white players, often in the shape of a compliment.<br><br><br><br>
Bethanie did hit a point regarding the work place, and the histroy of racism does play a part in what is or is not considered okay. I don't think that is a fair justification, but not much I can do about it...yet. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
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The imbalance doesn't really bother me a lot, but I do wonder how much of it is just my perspective as someone who is white. If there is some truth to the double standard..why is that okay? I'm not asking for a definitive answer, btw. Heh.</div>
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I don't think it is okay, and hopefully as we progress it will disappear.<br><br>
What I would like is for us to reach the point where the "jokes" really are just jokes, and have no hidden undertone we need to worry about.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
Yeah. See that's more what personal philosophy would be as well. There are certain statements/phrases that would generally be considered offensive by a community as a whole. In those cases, the speaker/offender should know better. Otherwise, the one who is offended maybe should cut the speaker a bit of slack.</div>
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Agreed.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
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Oh, the mods hear that all the time..."That Tame..he's just so obsessed with not offending anyone" <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/grin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":D"></div>
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Have you guys set up a separate file for me yet? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/pimp.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":tame:"><br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
I wonder sometimes too, how much environment plays a factor in one's sensitivity. That is, if you're around a very diverse group of people, especially as a child/growing up, are you less sensitive than someone who grew up in a homogenous community.</div>
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Let me think on that one.
 

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Thinking of the double standard that was mentioned........Have you ever watched comedy specials, such as chris rock or dave chappell? they always make fun of whites, name calling etc etc......i suspect if a white comedian did the same directed at blacks it would be called racist so why is it different if its directed at whites?<br><br>
just curious
 

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>>The imbalance doesn't really bother me a lot, but I do wonder how much of it is just my perspective as someone who is white. If there is some truth to the double standard..why is that okay? I'm not asking for a definitive answer, btw. Heh.<br><br><br><br>
I don't think it is okay, and hopefully as we progress it will disappear.<br><br>
What I would like is for us to reach the point where the "jokes" really are just jokes, and have no hidden undertone we need to worry about.>><br><br><br><br>
zOMG! I agree with Tame!<br><br><br><br>
I think the double-standard does come from differentials in power. No matter how many times I am called a "cracker", it will never threaten the white system of privilege.<br><br><br><br>
ebola
 
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