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Question for vegans... re honey

4K views 53 replies 19 participants last post by  VegAnna 
#1 ·
I was wondering how you get away from the honey in whole wheat bread? I've never came across a whole wheat bread that doesn't contain honey.... Do you bake your own?

Also, are there any vegans out there who call themselves vegan, but eat some honey? I thought vegan meant NO animal products whatsoever.... Would you consider someone who ate even very little honey vegan? I read an article by some PETA guy, saying he was vegan, but didn't push the honey issue.

Thanks!
 
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#3 ·
There is no bible that I know of that gives any Vegan commandments. After the obvious (meat, eggs, dairy) - the rest is all shades of gray. It's up to the individual to decide for themselves.

I really love the philosophy of the www.veganoutreach.com folks.

Here is a quote from their site:

(btw - this is just their take on it - it's still up to individuals to decide)

When you first discover the reality of modern animal agriculture, you might feel compelled to try to root out every single product associated with animal suffering. Unfortunately, personal purity is impossible. All around us are items connected in some way to animal exploitation: organic foods (animal manure used as fertilizer), cotton (animal products in the bleaching process), bicycles (animal fat used in the vulcanization of tires), books (hooves and bones in binding glue), roads and buildings (animal products used in curing concrete), water (tested with animal products, often filtered through bone char), etc. Even many vegan foods result in killing some animals during planting and harvesting.



My personal philosopy on the honey issue:

I don't use honey as a condiment - and I don't use it as an ingredient in what I bake. If something happens to have some honey in it (particulalarly cereals and bread) I will still buy it. I won't buy it though if the word HONEY is in the title (honey-nut cheerios, HoneyOat Bread, etc.) - that's just a weird quirk I have for myself.

<edited to correct typos>
 
#6 ·
I avoid honey at all costs. My wife still uses it, though I'm not sure we'll buy a new container when the current one runs out. She's less likely to turn down a restaurant or grocery item if it has honey listed in the ingredients, and it's only for her. I guess I simply don't like bee vomit...

I buy bread from Whole Foods, many varieties of which don't have honey in it. I also like Trader Joe's Barley something-or-other bread, though every single variety of theirs besides that has honey in it.

I never really liked honey to begin with. I didn't care if I didn't notice it, but I definitely never liked it as a sweetener, so I don't miss honey at all.
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by epski

No. It is speciesist. Something can be both speciesist and arrived at through rational means.

Where do you draw the line for creatures that feel pain and suffering, Oatmeal?
Speciesism is totally not rational to me, so for me the two attributes are mutually exclusive.

I don't know where to draw the line, really. I come from the other side. To me it seems not 100% rational to claim that bees feel pain, as of now. In the post I linked I mention some other points too.
 
#13 ·
There are several distributors that I know of who do not use honey in their breads, but they aren't nationwide at all. Reineckers' Bakery, who delivers to the store where I work, makes a variety of traditional eastern European breads, none of which contain honey. I think Orlando Breads might also have a few nonhoneyfied breads.

My mom has made my family's bread for years. She uses honey as the sweetener, and so far I have not been able to convince her to use molasses or something else. I don't think I will be able to convince her to experiement around much now that she has her own hive of bees in our backyard.
 
#15 ·
Eating honey doesn't make me feel bad like drinking milk or eating meat. I'm not trying to impress people by adopting a strict diet.

I think if vegans want to avoid honey that is totally cool, but it shouldn't be a major part of the argument for veganism. My father (omni, though he's making progress
) agrees with a lot my reasoning for not eating animal products but laughed out loud when I told him that I'm not truly vegan because I still eat honey. Most omnis would react the same way, though they may be capable of seeing why meat is wrong. I guess I'm trying to say that when the average person eats Honey Nut Cheerios for breakfast, the most cruelty is in the milk, not the cereal.

Sleeman Honey Brown is a fine beer, might I add.
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by sunshinemelissa

I don't think Ezekiel 4:9 bread has honey. I think it's 4:9, not quite sure if I have the numbers right but it is Ezekiel.
Sunshinemelissa is right. Ezekiel 4:9 does not contain honey and it's delicious. It's made with sprouted grains and is an excellant source of high quality protein. They sell a few different varieties. Try it.
 
#19 ·
I don't like statements like "shouldn't."

Look, I don't go around using honey as the major cruelty to animals in the world, but I'd like to think I'm being consistent about my ethics, and I'd like to think I'm giving all creatures the benefit of the doubt. There's nothing weird about that, unless you're omni, in which case not eating cows is weird, too, so who cares if they think we're weird or not?
 
#20 ·
Yeah, I usually build my argument around "no harm to sentient beings". And it's a good Q if bees are sentient. OTOH, it's no question that a pig or cow is sentient. So my point is that, to define and argue my veganism, I don't actually need a 100% accurate knowledge or definition of the word 'sentient', if I avoid bees.

In my direct experience, the honey-bee topic is a bit too close to "do worms/plants feel pain". It's simply not worth getting into because the discussion then can too easily develop into "what is pain or what can be called sentient", and I don't want that.

That's where I'm coming from basically, the argumentative side. I of course respect your personal ethics and have nothing against it.

But, to answer the original question, personally I consider someone who eats honey vegan. But I also consider honey a quite unnecessary and awkward thing (I'm with you on the bee vomit thing), and certainly you can bake whole wheat bread without honey!

p.s. Does that mean we shouldn't use shouldn't anymore??
 
#22 ·
See, I can't stand white bread! So I eat whole wheat, or anything BUT white! As long as it's vegan. But honey- that is an ingredient that isn't a matter to me. I don't eat honey by itself, because I'm sweet enough already.
Actually because, it's too sweet by itself for me... 'Cept with peanut butter. heh. Plus, I LOVE granola bars (Nature Valley.. mm).

The first vegan I met ate honey. And I am not sure, but I believe my other vegan friend eats honey.

So yes, I consider someone who refrains from meat, dairy, and eggs a vegan. Even when they eat honey.
 
#23 ·
bees are very simple creatures and I'm not convinced they feel pain or have emotions.

---------------------

I watched a neat show recently that showed some bees getting drunk off something fermented on a lime tree (I think). Apparently they do this on purpose .... when they got back to the hive, guard bees wouldn't let them in and kicked them out (purhaps until they were "sober" LOL). Im not saying that because some bees drink fermented material apparently on purpose that this makes them feel pain but I believe bees feel pain due to other reasons ... I avoid honey as I see it as a form of animal control which I wish to avoid supporting (ie, I wish to avoid the suport of the philosophy of animal manipulation for human benefit).

It was an interesting show (Not related to bees but ... another tidbit I learned on that show was about these monkeys on a popular tourist island. They would try to steal people's alcoholic drinks constantly. An interesting study showed pretty much the exact same percentages of non-drinking monkeys ("Tea-Totallers" LOL) , normal-drinking monkeys, and alcoholic problematic monkeys as exists in the human population. I found that interesting)
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Oatmeal

Yeah, I usually build my argument around "no harm to sentient beings". And it's a good Q if bees are sentient. OTOH, it's no question that a pig or cow is sentient. So my point is that, to define and argue my veganism, I don't actually need a 100% accurate knowledge or definition of the word 'sentient', if I avoid bees.

In my direct experience, the honey-bee topic is a bit too close to "do worms/plants feel pain". It's simply not worth getting into because the discussion then can too easily develop into "what is pain or what can be called sentient", and I don't want that.

That's where I'm coming from basically, the argumentative side. I of course respect your personal ethics and have nothing against it.

But, to answer the original question, personally I consider someone who eats honey vegan. But I also consider honey a quite unnecessary and awkward thing (I'm with you on the bee vomit thing), and certainly you can bake whole wheat bread without honey!

p.s. Does that mean we shouldn't use shouldn't anymore??
To you and vegluv, just to clarify my issue with that word, I don't like it when people tell me what I should and shouldn't do. Anyone may feel free to give me constructive advice--I'll surely listen--but I'll decide what I should and shouldn't do.

I think there are better ways to express what we really mean than using those two words. They have their place, but telling someone (especially someone you don't know) that they should or shouldn't do anything (like someone told me I should believe in astrology the other day) is laughable at best and irritating at worst. We're all entitled to our opinions, but let's keep them opinions, right?
 
#26 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by sunshinemelissa

I think it's funny how this topic turned into a debate between epski and oatmeal. You guys both have your reasonongs and I respect both of them. I agree that honey is a fine line in determining veganism. It will always be a debate and we can't get a round that.
Any topic at VB pertaining to a question about whether or not something is vegan is begging for debate. In this case, I think Oatmeal and I didn't really debate whether or not honey is truly vegan (I know I wasn't trying to change his opinion); we simply had a discussion in which the two of us clarified our points of view. We agree on much, and even on this topic we agree on quite a bit. Oatmeal is one of my favorite members here, so I find it funny that someone thinks we bogarted this thread to lock horns!

We handled ourselves well, and we came to a deeper understanding of each other's opinion, which is awesome. That's why I'm here!
 
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