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Somebody told me that vegetarianism was dumb because animals would die by other predators even if we were not the ones killing them. He said "aren't we just another predator?" I was like "well the way they treat them..." but then i thought and began to wonder why don't i just go "free range" then. is there something im not getting?
 

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i dont know a lot about it but i would imagine that "free range" animals are killed just as cruelly as not 'free range". plus, although they may be treated better (whilst being raised) than those in factory farms they are probably still not enjoyable conditions. anyway it is easy enough to go without meat plus it is much better for the environment and your health. and it is stupid to say that predators would kill them if we didnt because if there was no demand for meat then animals wouldnt be bred for food...there would be no surplus of animals.
 

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Yeah, farm animals wouldn't be killed by predators because we breed them. As for wild animals, for any particular wild animal we shoot, we shorten his/her life from what it would have been otherwise, and if predators would have eaten him/her otherwise, we are thus taking their "food". Sure, being shot might sometimes be less painful than being killed by a non-human predator ... so? Should we kill random people because they will die from drug overdose, get run over by a car, drown or suffer in a hospital etc., all of which are more painful than being shot?
 

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We still don't need to eat them if we don't want to. As omnivores, we have a choice.<br><br><br><br>
Natural predators in the wild also don't kill animals at the rate that humans do in slaughterhouses or farms. Humans tend to overkill and waste.
 

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Civilized humans wipe out all competitors and entire ecosystems in order to produce their favorite foods, be it soybeans or beef. No other animal does this. Non-civilized (hunter-gatherer) people behave as other apex predators in an ecosystem, and tend not to destroy ecosystems or kill off their competitors, though they will compete with other apex predators in the same niche, such as bears.
 

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homosapiens have more in common with prey animals then preditor animals.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
>> our physical makeup matches more to that of herbivores(frugivores) then carnivores.<br><br>
mouth,teeth,fingernails,saliva,digestive tract, etc,etc.
 

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Watch one of them there episodes of Survivor when a chicken escapes and tell me you think humans are natural predators.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
>> our physical makeup matches more to that of herbivores(frugivores) then carnivores.<br><br>
mouth,teeth,fingernails,saliva,digestive tract, etc,etc.</div>
</div>
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Only according to people who were malnourished as children. Seriously, a herbivore living upwards of 80 years on a diet involving steak and burgers, how?<br><br><br><br>
Humans are omnivores. Our physical makeup matches more to omnivores. Why people bother to dispute this I have no idea.
 

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Humans have the ability to understand the consquence of our actions, and therefor should accept responsibility for that.<br><br><br><br>
Other preditors need to kill to live, we do not.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jeezycreezy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Watch one of them there episodes of Survivor when a chicken escapes and tell me you think humans are natural predators.<br><br><br><br>
Cheers!<br><br>
TJ</div>
</div>
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Well we can run pretty fast to catch it... or well, at least we have a great sense of smell to locate prey... well um hmm, great hearing? no.<br><br>
Oh! we have claws and large canines to kill and rip flesh.. or hmm dang not that either.<br><br><br><br>
what we do have, is a great pair of thumbs to assist in the picking of vegetation - fruit especially. and a pair of forward facing eyes to provide the depth perception required to pick a blueberry lost in an array of leaves... but that would make us... wait.. frugivores.. just like the great apes.<br><br><br><br>
...well, thumbs and a cold heart that builds machines of inslavement to satisfy our lust for flesh. the wonder of humanity.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Scythe</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Humans are omnivores. Our physical makeup matches more to omnivores. Why people bother to dispute this I have no idea.</div>
</div>
<br><br><br>
k.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.vegsource.com/veg_faq/comparative.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vegsource.com/veg_faq/comparative.htm</a><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Facial Muscles</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tReduced to allow wide mouth gape<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tWell-developed<br><br>
Omnivore \tReduced<br><br><span>Human \tWell-developed</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Jaw Type</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tAngle not expanded<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tExpanded angle<br><br>
Omnivore \tAngle not expanded<br><br><span>Human \tExpanded angle</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Jaw Joint Location</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tOn same plane as molar teeth<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tAbove the plane of the molars<br><br>
Omnivore \tOn same plane as molar teeth<br><br><span>Human \tAbove the plane of the molars</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Jaw Motion</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tShearing; minimal side-to-side motion<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tNo shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back<br><br>
Omnivore \tShearing; minimal side-to-side<br><br><span>Human \tNo shear; good side-to-side, front-to-bac</span>k<br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Major Jaw Muscles</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tTemporalis<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tMasseter and pterygoids<br><br>
Omnivore \tTemporalis<br><br><span>Human \tMasseter and pterygoids</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Mouth Opening vs. Head Size</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tLarge<br><br><span>Herbivore \tSmall</span><br><br>
Omnivore \tLarge<br><br><span>Human \tSmall</span><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br><br>
Teeth (Incisors)</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tShort and pointed<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tBroad, flattened and spade shaped<br><br>
Omnivore \tShort and pointed<br><br><span>Human \tBroad, flattened and spade shaped</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Teeth (Canines)</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tLong, sharp and curved<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tDull and short or long (for defense), or none<br><br>
Omnivore \tLong, sharp and curved<br><br><span>Human \tShort and blunted</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Teeth (Molars)</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tSharp, jagged and blade shaped<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tFlattened with cusps vs complex surface<br><br><span>Omnivore</span> \tSharp blades and/or flattened<br><br><span>Human \tFlattened with nodular cusps</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Chewing</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tNone; swallows food whole<br><br><span>Herbivore \tExtensive chewing necessary</span><br><br>
Omnivore \tSwallows food whole and/or simple crushing<br><br><span>Human \tExtensive chewing necessary</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Saliva</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tNo digestive enzymes<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tCarbohydrate digesting enzymes<br><br>
Omnivore \tNo digestive enzymes<br><br><span>Human \tCarbohydrate digesting enzyme</span>s<br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Stomach Type</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tSimple<br><br>
Herbivore \tSimple or multiple chambers<br><br>
Omnivore \tSimple<br><br><span>Human \tSimple<br><br></span><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Stomach Acidity</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tLess than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tpH 4 to 5 with food in stomach<br><br>
Omnivore \tLess than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach<br><br><span>Human \tpH 4 to 5 with food in stomach</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Stomach Capacity</span><br><br>
Carnivore \t60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tLess than 30% of total volume of digestive tract<br><br>
Omnivore \t60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract<br><br><span>Human \t21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract</span><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><br><br>
Length of Small Intestine</span><br><br>
Carnivore \t3 to 6 times body length<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \t10 to more than 12 times body length<br><br>
Omnivore \t4 to 6 times body length<br><br><span>Human \t10 to 11 times body length</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Colon</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tSimple, short and smooth<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tLong, complex; may be sacculated<br><br>
Omnivore \tSimple, short and smooth<br><br><span>Human \tLong, sacculated</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Liver</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tCan detoxify vitamin A<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tCannot detoxify vitamin A<br><br>
Omnivore \tCan detoxify vitamin A<br><br><span>Human \tCannot detoxify vitamin A</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Kidney</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tExtremely concentrated urine<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tModerately concentrated urine<br><br>
Omnivore \tExtremely concentrated urine<br><br><span>Human \tModerately concentrated urine</span><br><br><br><br><span style="text-decoration:underline;">Nails</span><br><br>
Carnivore \tSharp claws<br><br><span>Herbivore</span> \tFlattened nails or blunt hooves<br><br>
Omnivore \tSharp claws<br><br><span>Human \tFlattened nails</span><br><br><br><br><br><br>
yeah... omnivores alright.<br><br><br><br>
how do people live on meat? guess the same way cats (carnivore) can live on all vegetation if given a taurine suppliment, or how cows live in factory farms being given mostly 'animal' feed - we are a resilient species.<br><br><br><br>
But if you still think we are true omnivores and meat is natural, go out in the woods and hunt and kill something with your bare hands and eat it raw, like natural predators do.<br><br>
good luck, ill enjoy my blueberries.
 

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Actually, Troub, an omnivore is simply a creature that can subside on plants and animals. Humans can do just that. It's one of the elements in our own nature that, despite our being relatively vulnerable early in our development as a species, allowed us to become such a formidible terror on present global ecology.<br><br><br><br>
The real bottom line is that, as an intelligent species who can make moral or rational decisions about diet and still survive, it is our duty to take the most prudent course.<br><br><br><br>
You can choose to be a vegan or vegetarian or carnivore in practice, but physiologically, you're still an omnivore.<br><br><br><br>
BTW - humans, despite a lot of trying, aren't predators.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>nigel</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Actually, Troub, an omnivore is simply a creature that can subside on plants and animals.</div>
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I would consider what the body <i>can</i> subside on, and what the body is designed for different. Cats can subside on 100% processed plant matter if given a taurine suppliment (as people with vegan pets can attest to) but that doesn't make them herbivores.<br><br><br><br>
I suppose most animals are a little omnivorous then (stict dietary sense) in that they(we) can obtain energy through a variety of sources. And it makes sense we would all be, allowing for such a large variety is a great survival mechanism.<br><br><br><br>
Like the Great Apes humans are frugivores, but as the great apes, we can also consume and digest animal matter (although not with great efficiancy) when an energy source is needed.<br><br><br><br>
--<br><br>
Dr Ryde began by describing how, during periods of abundance, most creatures eat only a narrow range of foods. For example lions flourish on zebra and wildebeest meat, songbirds on worms and grubs, berries etc, cattle, sheep and horses on different kinds of grasses and apes live largely on fruits and vegetables. These niches tend to be transgressed only in times of shortage. What foods then has Nature programmed Man to eat in order to maintain health growth. activity and reproduction? Boyd and Konner (1985) state that <i>"From about 24 to 5 million years ago fruits appear to have been the main dietary constituent for hominids...since 4.5 million years ago our ancestral feeding pattern included increasing amounts of meat.</i><br><br><br><br>
Compared to other primates, modern man eats a great range of foods and this probably relates more to his use of cutting and crushing implements and to the later control of fire. The fact that raw meat is almost universally cooked to make it palatable and digestible suggests that prepromethean man did not eat it in large amounts. Cooking denatures protein, melts out fat and breaks down the fibrous tissue. Carnivores gulp down lumps of meat, their sharpened molars tearing it like scissors for digestion to begin in the stomach. Herbivores with flatter molar teeth crush the cellulose-walled plant cells and begin carbohydrate digestion in the mouth with the enzyme ptyalin (amylase). This enzyme occurs in cows, pigs, rabbits and humans but it doesn't occur in carnivores.<br><br>
--<br><br><br><br><br><br>
I still believe humans are designed to eat primarily plant matter. As we don't have the natural physiological mechanisms nessicery to obtain and process animal flesh. (we have to cook most flesh to aid in digestion) and according to the quote above, humans didn't start eating flesh in abundance until they <i>could</i> cook it.
 

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I think humans are designed, via their cognitive capabilities, to realize that there is really no design in nature for anything because designing implies an intention, and that it doesn't matter what our bodies are suitable for. My hands are suitable for strangling Ted Nugent but I'm not going to do it. (That's because I can always shoot him. Just kidding!! I would rather run him over. Just kidding!! He's a sweet guy. No, he's really quite a pathetic ****.)
 

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Unfortunately for you troub, the argument is much more complex than what you present.<br><br><br><br><i>"Evidence of Humans as Omnivores<br><br>
Archeological Record<br><br><br><br>
As far back as it can be traced, clearly the archeological record indicates an omnivorous diet for humans that included meat. Our ancestry is among the hunter/gatherers from the beginning. Once domestication of food sources began, it included both animals and plants.<br><br>
Cell Types<br><br><br><br>
Relative number and distribution of cell types, as well as structural specializations, are more important than overall length of the intestine to determining a typical diet. Dogs are typical carnivores, but their intestinal characteristics have more in common with omnivores. Wolves eat quite a lot of plant material.<br><br>
Fermenting Vats<br><br><br><br>
Nearly all plant eaters have fermenting vats (enlarged chambers where foods sits and microbes attack it). Ruminants like cattle and deer have forward sacs derived from remodeled esophagus and stomach. Horses, rhinos, and colobine monkeys have posterior, hindgut sacs. Humans have no such specializations.<br><br>
Jaws<br><br><br><br>
Although evidence on the structure and function of human hands and jaws, behavior, and evolutionary history also either support an omnivorous diet or fail to support strict vegetarianism, the best evidence comes from our teeth.<br><br><br><br>
The short canines in humans are a functional consequence of the enlarged cranium and associated reduction of the size of the jaws. In primates, canines function as both defense weapons and visual threat devices. Interestingly, the primates with the largest canines (gorillas and gelada baboons) both have basically vegetarian diets. In archeological sites, broken human molars are most often confused with broken premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore. On the other hand, some herbivores have well-developed incisors that are often mistaken for those of human teeth when found in archeological excavations.<br><br>
Salivary Glands<br><br><br><br>
These indicate we could be omnivores. Saliva and urine data vary, depending on diet, not taxonomic group.<br><br>
Intestines<br><br><br><br>
Intestinal absorption is a surface area, not linear problem. Dogs (which are carnivores) have intestinal specializations more characteristic of omnivores than carnivores such as cats. The relative number of crypts and cell types is a better indication of diet than simple length. We are intermediate between the two groups.<br><br>
Conclusion<br><br><br><br>
Humans are classic examples of omnivores in all relevant anatomical traits. There is no basis in anatomy or physiology for the assumption that humans are pre-adapted to the vegetarian diet. For that reason, the best arguments in support of a meat-free diet remain ecological, ethical, and health concerns.<br><br><br><br>
[Dr. McArdle is a vegetarian and currently Scientific Advisor to The American Anti-Vivisection Society. He is an anatomist and a primatologist.]"</i><br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm#omni" target="_blank">http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm#omni</a><br><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><br><br><i>"To Summarize:<br><br><br><br>
* In general, dietary classifications in nature are not as distinct/clear as the narrow, simplistic, precisely defined diets promoted by certain dietary advocates.<br><br><br><br>
* Because dietary classifications are not strict in nature, a frugivore might deliberately eat some animal foods, hence not qualify as "vegetarian" as the term applies in human culture (similar remarks apply to folivores).<br><br><br><br>
* Primate diets tend to be highly variable in the wild."</i><br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2a.shtml#categ%20not%20strict" target="_blank">http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...20not%20strict</a><br><br><br><br>
Here is a brief rundown of the matter, and it is much more thorough than that nonsense they post at VS. (And how the hell did you find anything there among all of the pop-ups?)<br><br><a href="http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-1a.shtml</a><br><br><br><br>
An interesting post on the matter (note: credentials and sources cited at the ends.)<br><br><a href="http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may2000/959372412.Ot.r.html" target="_blank">http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...2412.Ot.r.html</a>
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>troub</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
Like the Great Apes humans are frugivores, but as the great apes, we can also consume and digest animal matter (although not with great efficiancy) when an energy source is needed.<br></div>
</div>
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If you think chimpanzees (our closest relative) are herbivores, you obviously have not had the pleasure of watching them hunt, rip apart and consume red colobus monkeys.<br><br><br><br>
Humans are omnivores. End of story.
 

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"homosapiens have more in common with prey animals then preditor animals."<br><br><br><br>
That is not true. We most resemble parasites. The issue with parasites is sometimes they are so "successful" at colonizing their host that they kill their host. Such parasites are less common than partially successful parasites, because if they kill too many hosts, there are no hosts left, but partially successful parasite always can find more hosts, despite having only limited growth and colonization in any particular host.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I think humans are designed, via their cognitive capabilities, to realize that there is really no design in nature for anything because designing implies an intention, and that it doesn't matter what our bodies are suitable for. My hands are suitable for strangling Ted Nugent but I'm not going to do it. (That's because I can always shoot him. Just kidding!! I would rather run him over. Just kidding!! He's a sweet guy. No, he's really quite a pathetic ****.)</div>
</div>
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I would really like to see Ted Nugent strangled by a clown.
 
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