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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone know about this? First off, I have to say, I've been a vegetarian for 15 years. I started researching traditional diets recently because of something a friend said about researching "opposites" or both sides of an issue in order to be better informed. I applied this thinking to diet and found loads of compelling information about primal diets and of how, according to fossil records, Paleolithic men and women were not vegetarians. I know plenty of veggies, primarily raw foodists who debate this.<br><br>
According to my research, the former situation makes more sense to me (the fact that we are natural omnis). But the vegetarian in me eschews the fossil records for the living proof of the vitality of vegetarians who are alive right now! Also, I was recently reading something about Jane Goodall (I love her!) and she said something about being more interested in the future of humanity rather than where we've come from. I rather like that and think it applies to this conundrum.<br><br>
Anyways, what I'm saying is, while I believe Paleos were omnis, we are still evolving, so maybe veg*nism is just the ticket. ???<br><br>
I'd love to hear your thoughts!
 

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We evolve to fit the needs of the world, because it is unlikely to change for us. What was realistic for small groups of paleolithic people is not realistic in a modern world with over 7 billion people. We will change, or we will go extinct. This is a reality all species have faced throughout history and prehistory.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hmmm... interesting, since the fact that agriculture is what enabled our population explosion. And, it's likely what will enable our demise.
 

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Agriculture enables our demise? How so?
 

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People in the stone ages lived hard, difficult lives. It was a constant struggle against the forces of Nature (weather, temperature, natural disasters), hunger, disease and injuries they got from fighting with other tribes and animals. Because of this, their lives were also very short. They ate whatever was the easiest to get to, and which had the most calories. The good thing about this kind of existence is that since their lives were short, they never lived to acquire the kinds of diseases we see in the Western world today, such as cancer and heart diseases.<br><br>
It's pretty obvious which lifestyle is the most benefitial to an individual - namely the modern lifestyle. Just look at how the population has grown. Unfortunately, this lifestyle is not what is best for other species with whom we share this planet. But it's not like we can really go back. Eating a bunch of meat to live like in the stone ages will definitely not help, on the contrary. The area of land required to grow vegetable foods is much less per calories than the area of land required to grow animal foods.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>starmama</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3044839"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Hmmm... interesting, since the fact that agriculture is what enabled our population explosion. And, it's likely what will enable our demise.</div>
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Irrelevant. Agriculture exists today, and that is a fact that is not likely to change regardless of what conclusions we draw in regards to its origin. Paleo man did not rely on agriculture, we do. A primal or paleo diet in modern times is really something of a fantasy. We do not know with absolute certainty what they ate and, even if we did, any attempt to follow it would ultimately be dependent on modern agriculture. And if we suddenly had a change in heart and abandoned agriculture, that would assuredly be the beginning of our demise a lot faster than waiting until we reach critical mass. But yes, the end result will likely be the same. This is true for all animals in all ecosystems that go through phases of starvation and increased population, humans just managed to drastically increase the length of this cycle.
 

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Why would evolving as meat eaters justify eating meat in modern times? Our evolutionary ancestors commonly practiced rape, genocide, cannibalism and infanticide as well. Are these the people we aspire to become?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3044881"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Why would evolving as meat eaters justify eating meat in modern times? Our evolutionary ancestors commonly practiced rape, genocide, cannibalism and infanticide as well. Are these the people we aspire to become?</div>
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This.<br><br>
I don't care what my ancestors ate. They didn't have the technology that we have today that makes it possible for anyone to be vegan. It is no longer necessary to consume meat.
 

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Some of us have evolved beyond eating flesh. We've evolved from caveman and did what we had to do to survive.....now with a conscience head on our shoulders....we think. Other people simply continue to do what they have been programmed to do since childhood and that chain will never be broken. They will continue to stay ignorant bc the media and their fellow carnivores support their lack of thinking. People fear change and reality.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3044881"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Why would evolving as meat eaters justify eating meat in modern times? Our evolutionary ancestors commonly practiced rape, genocide, cannibalism and infanticide as well. Are these the people we aspire to become?</div>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/yes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":yes:"><br><br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p"><br><br>
Your post, exactly. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":up:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3044881"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Why would evolving as meat eaters justify eating meat in modern times? Our evolutionary ancestors commonly practiced rape, genocide, cannibalism and infanticide as well. Are these the people we aspire to become?</div>
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...and were prey more often than predator. Lived without fossil fuels, or housing developments. An ordinary day probably spent more calories than most marathons. Were exposed to climate. Did little to cause species to go extinct.<br><br>
Even if everyone began eating vegan we couldn't make up for the daily loss of animals through loss of habitat, food sources, and pollution.
 

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I ate primal over the summer, following the primal eating outline in Mark Sissone's book <span style="text-decoration:underline;">The Primal Blueprint</span>. My diet consisted of meat, eggs, veggies, and a small amount of fruit, butter, and cheese. I cut out all grains, sugars, lentils, caffeine, and processed food. At first I felt fantastic and lost 10 lbs in a month. Then I started crashing. I felt sluggish and cranky, and it was killing my grocery budget to buy so much locally raised meat and eggs. I was spending half of my family's grocery budget just on myself each month, leaving the other half for my husband and three kids. Needless to say I only followed primal eating for about three months before giving it up. While I agree with some of Mark's ideas/research, I think the negatives of having a meat based diet outweigh the potential positives. Now here I am, going the complete opposite <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> One huge draw of vegetarianism to me, besides the health benefits, is the cost. Soooo much cheaper then eating primal.
 

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I used to low carb when I needed to lose a few pounds. When I was younger it worked great, other than the industrial strength constipation. But, as I got older my blood pressure started going up, my cholesterol went up and I felt like hammered sh!t. And, it was less and less effective when I turned 40.<br><br>
Since I have gone vegetarian, darn near vegan, I feel a lot better. I haven't had a physical since so, I don't know what my cholesterol will look like. I do walk a lot and I'm sure that has an effect on things. I really don't want to go back to eating meat. I feel good so, I can only assume that things are going good.<br><br>
I believe that we all have different physiology. And, it changes as we age. My experience is that my body doesn't tolerate the abuse that it once would and I'm more in tune to what it's telling me than I once was. One size does not fit all.<br><br>
This is what would happen: If I go back to eating meat I will immediately struggle with IBS like symptoms. I will experience physical highs and lows. I'll have the occasional feelings of depression for no reason. I'll have indigestion in the middle of the night. It's a slippery slope and once you start down that hill it's a slide all the way to the bottom. No thanks.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>svzee</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3045137"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I ate primal over the summer, following the primal eating outline in Mark Sissone's book <span style="text-decoration:underline;">The Primal Blueprint</span>. My diet consisted of meat, eggs, veggies, and a small amount of fruit, butter, and cheese. I cut out all grains, sugars, lentils, caffeine, and processed food. At first I felt fantastic and lost 10 lbs in a month. Then I started crashing. I felt sluggish and cranky, and it was killing my grocery budget to buy so much locally raised meat and eggs. I was spending half of my family's grocery budget just on myself each month, leaving the other half for my husband and three kids. Needless to say I only followed primal eating for about three months before giving it up. While I agree with some of Mark's ideas/research, I think the negatives of having a meat based diet outweigh the potential positives. Now here I am, going the complete opposite <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> One huge draw of vegetarianism to me, besides the health benefits, is the cost. Soooo much cheaper then eating primal.</div>
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That's awesome that you're here now <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> It really is cheaper to eat vegetarian and the health benefits are amazing.<br><br>
I did the low carb diet in high school, I've never felt so crappy in my life. I did it the "right" way too. If you're diabetic, that's one thing, but the average person likely can't thrive eating tons of meat.
 

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So I went to Whole foods today and i got a VEGAN PIZZA... But thats not whats amazing. Its that although the woman serving the pizza had more costumers than just me and my family, she took the time to ask me if i was vegan. And then upon asking, she got gloves out and made sure that my pizza wasn't touching anything that had cheese or meat on it... I love this girl!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3044881"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Why would evolving as meat eaters justify eating meat in modern times? Our evolutionary ancestors commonly practiced rape, genocide, cannibalism and infanticide as well. Are these the people we aspire to become?</div>
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Is the correct answer "UGG!" ?
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Clueless Git</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3045628"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Is the correct answer "UGG!" ?</div>
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Depends on who you ask. Some of us apparently inherited more Neanderthal blood than others. As for me, I feel the future matters more than the past.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Josh James xVx</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3044881"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Why would evolving as meat eaters justify eating meat in modern times? Our evolutionary ancestors commonly practiced rape, genocide, cannibalism and infanticide as well. Are these the people we aspire to become?</div>
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The argument from the paleo community here would be that evolving as meat eaters justifies eating meat biologically, not ethically. Society has changed drastically since those days, but our DNA has only changed slightly.<br><br>
I ate paleo for a little more than a year when I was younger, and I had much more energy than on the SAD. There are things I learned from the paleo diet that still make sense to me as a vegetarian. For example: plants that are meant for us to consume are good for us. Fruits have specifically evolved so that when animals consume them, they excrete the seeds in the act of defecation and provide a fertilizer rich environment for the seedling. As the opposite of this, paleos argue that grains are not suitable food for animals. Since the consumption of a wheat kernel ends it's ability to reproduce, wheat and other grains have evolved to contain toxins to stop this from happening. When paleos speak against modern agriculture, they mean the production, processing, and consumption of grains that are otherwise toxic to humans.<br><br>
I'm alright with this line of thought. I'm not a nutritionist, but I know that I always feel better digestively and energywise when I start my day with fruit rather than with a big bowl of grain.<br><br>
I think it's important to realize that the paleo community is also seen as wacky from a SAD omni perspective, and have to put up with a lot of the same bullsh*t as us. Judging them for their diet choices or suggesting that they're ignorant or less evolved reeks of negativity. At least they've taken the step to be conscious of what they eat. The great majority of the population doesn't have that in common with us.
 

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In pre-agricultural times people had to eat what they 'found' or starve. I do believe humans are natural omnivores but to me that only means we 'can' eat anything we choose to (or not) - unlike some animals that can only be carnivores (cats for instance) or herbivores (koalas). I tried the Paleo diet a few years back and it was much harder than vegetarianism (food had to be fresh, local, organic, raw as much as possible, etc.) - expensive and not always easy to find even in a big city.
 

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I'm not convinced that we know much about the diets of early humans. I have read about this and have seen conflicting opinions based on the research. Here's what I consider pretty good information on early human diets:<br><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman</a>
 
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