VeggieBoards banner

1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all.<br><br>
Please excuse me if this is not the correct forum. I have been a vegan for 12 years. No problems.<br><br>
I have an avid interest in antiques. Any kind. Of late, I have been looking for doctor bags and umbrellas from the Victorian period with the realisation that these items inevitably consist of leather and silk in some degree.<br><br>
Now, I would never buy leather or silk (or any animal related producted) from a contemporary store. Yet these items were manufactured at a time when eco-considerations were perhaps less in the forefront of cultural thinking. I was wondering what people's thoughts on the matter are. I really want to add to my antique collection but as a vegan I have no reference to critical arguments as to whether my code of ethics would or should prevent me purchasing products from another era. I don't whether it is anachronistic of me to even apply contemporary veganism to a Victorian England leather doctor's bag!<br><br>
Help?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
388 Posts
I don't view your purchasing of antique leather doctor's bags as increasing demand for leather products, which is the primary reason vegans would avoid leather, right? To decrease demand? The doctor bag has existed for a long time and will continue to exist regardless of whether or not you buy it -- and your leaving it for someone else to buy will probably not prevent the manufacture of a new one, because one would assume that the other person interested in buying it wants it for its antique value, not because they just want any old leather doctor's bag.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,456 Posts
I agree with Kari. It's not like the company is still around producing these products and from you buying them you're supporting them to stay in business. They're used anyways.
 

·
I ♥ Vegan Guys ◕‿◕
Joined
·
3,229 Posts
Do what you feel are comfortable with. Vegans are always going to have different views on these subjects, however I tend to see that most don't see a problem with it so long as you aren't directly supporting the industry, which you aren't. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
668 Posts
I agree w/ all of the above.<br><br>
Laura <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,280 Posts
Personaly it would annoy me to have in my house an umbrella or whatever made of someone's skin, and i could not see it's artistic side hidden by the horror of the barbaric suffering it comes from, can the suffering have been this morning or a 100 years ago.<br><br>
Everybody has different ethics and points of views.
 

·
Vegan Very Metal
Joined
·
774 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>vegan cyberpunk</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3110857"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Personaly it would annoy me to have in my house an umbrella or whatever made of someone's skin, and i could not see it's artistic side hidden by the horror of the barbaric suffering it comes from, can the suffering have been this morning or a 100 years ago.<br><br>
Everybody has different ethics and points of views.</div>
</div>
<br>
I agree with punky.<br><br>
Regardless of which era items came from, it would still make me uneasy about having such things in my possession.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,026 Posts
I find it interesting that you've been vegan for 12 years already yet haven't got your own opinion on this issue.<br>
No matter, here's mine. If you like it, adopt it <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br>
I think, generally, <b>if the antique is truly an antique then the materials are ethically immaterial</b>, hehe. What's done is done. No need to worry about past events.<br><br>
Consider, for example, that piano keys used to be made of ivory. Someone with an antique or older piano might have ivory keys. It wouldn't make sense to replace the keys with the newer ivory-like synthetic versions unless they're damaged. Just keep the piano as is, play it and/or admire it, but don't go out hunting elephants and other tusked animals (or paying others to do so).<br><br>
The issues would be:<br>
- is the item truly antique? How can you make sure?<br>
- is the version made of animal skin the only kind available or suitable for your needs/collection/etc.?<br>
- are the reasons you're attracted to such an item based in animal-friendly ethics or is there something else in your psyche pulling you to animal skins that needs more exploration? That is, be honest with yourself about why you want these items.<br>
- will having/purchasing/showcasing this item encourage others to harm animals?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,577 Posts
Having a hobby where you purchase the very thing that is meant to bother you seems a bit odd to me.
 

·
Vegan Very Metal
Joined
·
774 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3111278"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I see nothing wrong with it.</div>
</div>
<br>
You see nothing wrong at all with owning such items? What a hypocritical and depressing point of view.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,946 Posts
I wouldn't want such an item in my home, personally.<br><br>
And used items, not necessarily antiques, DO have certain re-sale values due to demand. Creating a higher demand for the resale of leather goods, for example, may influence a person purchasing the item new, because they know they may get more money for it when they sell it used. If there's less demand for used leather/silk items, and the re-sale value goes down, this may affect people's decision and they may choose NOT to buy leather/silk.<br><br>
----<br>
Once upon a time, there was a wise man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing. He had a habit of walking on the beach before he began his work. One day, as he was walking along the shore, he looked down the beach and saw a human figure moving like a dancer. He smiled to himself at the thought of someone who would dance to the day, and so, he walked faster to catch up.<br><br>
As he got closer, he noticed that the figure was that of a young man, and that what he was doing was not dancing at all. The young man was reaching down to the shore, picking up small objects, and throwing them into the ocean.<br><br>
He came closer still and called out "Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?"<br><br>
The young man paused, looked up, and replied "Throwing starfish into the ocean."<br><br>
"I must ask, then, why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?" asked the somewhat startled wise man.<br><br>
To this, the young man replied, "The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don't throw them in, they'll die."<br><br>
Upon hearing this, the wise man commented, "But, young man, do you not realize that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish all along every mile? You can't possibly make a difference!"<br><br>
At this, the young man bent down, picked up yet another starfish, and threw it into the ocean. As it met the water, he said, "It made a difference for that one."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,852 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>penny79</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3111551"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I wouldn't want such an item in my home, personally.<br><br>
And used items, not necessarily antiques, DO have certain re-sale values due to demand. Creating a higher demand for the resale of leather goods, for example, may influence a person purchasing the item new, because they know they may get more money for it when they sell it used. If there's less demand for used leather/silk items, and the re-sale value goes down, this may affect people's decision and they may choose NOT to buy leather/silk.</div>
</div>
<br>
This.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,157 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>vincent</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3111521"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
You see nothing wrong at all with owning such items? What a hypocritical and depressing point of view.</div>
</div>
<br>
Because...? It's very presumptuous of you to call my view hypocritical unless you fancy yourself familiar with my other views.
 

·
Vegan Very Metal
Joined
·
774 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3111666"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Because...? It's very presumptuous of you to call my view hypocritical unless you fancy yourself familiar with my other views.</div>
</div>
<br><br>
You're a vegetarian, aren't you? One would presume that such a person would hopefully be against the acquisition of such wares, but obviously not you.<br><br>
I certainly don't need to be familiar with your other views, to know that on this issue, you are a hypocrite.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,157 Posts
No, I'm vegan (or at least very close to vegan) and I'm against financially compensating the exploitation of animals. Someone collecting antiques containing leather doesn't do that as far as I can tell. And you've still offered no reasoning as to why you think it's hypocritical, BTW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,577 Posts
<span style="color:#FF0000;">NSFW</span><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3111278"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I see nothing wrong with it.</div>
</div>
<br>
You see nothing wrong in having a hobby that trades in this sadistic ****? Really?<br><br><br><a href="http:" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlqQvLzmQt0&feature=fvwrel</a><br><br><br><br>
This vid is made even more sickening with the use of an upbeat muzak-style keyboard track to make you feel all warm and tingly inside. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":(">
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25,067 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>cornsail</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3111933"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
No, I'm vegan (or at least very close to vegan) and I'm against financially compensating the exploitation of animals. Someone collecting antiques containing leather doesn't do that as far as I can tell. And you've still offered no reasoning as to why you think it's hypocritical, BTW.</div>
</div>
<br>
To me, seeing veg*nism only as a consumer strategy is problematic. A consumer influence argument would not even suffice to establish veganism, because many opportunities arise where we could use animal products quite freely without financially supporting exploitation -- any leftovers from a dinner table or from someone else's plate in a restaurant that would be going to be put to trash otherwise; used mink stoles; the dead bodies of one's companion animals, etc.<br><br>
If someone felt ethically uneasy with walking around with a dead fox on their shoulders, then that uneasiness in itself would already establish that some actions are culturally or politically questionable even though they don't enter into the causal chains of supply and demand. And once that moral area is established, I don't see any of these issues, such as the one in the OP, as very clear-cut. One could make the argument that wearing a dead fox on one's shoulders would have a consumer influence indirectly, by inspiring others to buy a new one, but those kind of causal chains are relatively uncertain.<br><br>
I do see a political value in distancing oneself from dead animal skin obtained unethically. That it's from a long time ago doesn't necessarily make a difference to me. Because certainly the beliefs and practices that some antique items reflect are not qualitatively different from the beliefs and practices right now: animals <i>were</i> seen as objects to be exploited, and they <i>are</i> seen in that way. I see one single political ideology -- animals as property, object, means to ends -- extending through time, and some antique leather products represent that ideology just as much as a new leather coat does, even though you're not giving your money for new items in the former case.<br><br>
To me, there is a political value in seeing that ideology, seeing different things representing it, and consciously embodying the view that you do not want any of it. That you opt out -- even within limits where completely opting out is never possible in Western society.<br><br>
That doesn't mean issues like the one in the OP are in any way at the top of my list of ethical problems in the world; these issues are very peripheral compared to someone buying meat from the store, and I wouldn't spend my time campaigning against antique leather items.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,157 Posts
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/3112081"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
To me, seeing veg*nism only as a consumer strategy is problematic.</div>
</div>
<br>
I never used the word "only". I was focusing on the difference between buying leather from, let's say a contemporary shoe company, and an antique dealer.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">A consumer influence argument would not even suffice to establish veganism, because many opportunities arise where we could use animal products quite freely without financially supporting exploitation -- any leftovers from a dinner table or from someone else's plate in a restaurant that would be going to be put to trash otherwise; used mink stoles; the dead bodies of one's companion animals, etc.</div>
</div>
<br>
I don't necessarily have a problem with things that don't fit the definition of vegan, but don't actually fuel animal abuse. I have no interest in cutting up my dead pets or eating meat out of the trash, this is just about how I would judge the actions of others.<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">If someone felt ethically uneasy with walking around with a dead fox on their shoulders, then that uneasiness in itself would already establish that some actions are culturally or politically questionable even though they don't enter into the causal chains of supply and demand. And once that moral area is established, I don't see any of these issues, such as the one in the OP, as very clear-cut. One could make the argument that wearing a dead fox on one's shoulders would have a consumer influence indirectly, by inspiring others to buy a new one, but those kind of causal chains are relatively uncertain.<br><br>
I do see a political value in distancing oneself from dead animal skin obtained unethically. That it's from a long time ago doesn't necessarily make a difference to me. Because certainly the beliefs and practices that some antique items reflect are not qualitatively different from the beliefs and practices right now: animals <i>were</i> seen as objects to be exploited, and they <i>are</i> seen in that way. I see one single political ideology -- animals as property, object, means to ends -- extending through time, and some antique leather products represent that ideology just as much as a new leather coat does, even though you're not giving your money for new items in the former case.<br><br>
To me, there is a political value in seeing that ideology, seeing different things representing it, and consciously embodying the view that you do not want any of it. That you opt out -- even within limits where completely opting out is never possible in Western society.<br><br>
That doesn't mean issues like the one in the OP are in any way at the top of my list of ethical problems in the world; these issues are very peripheral compared to someone buying meat from the store, and I wouldn't spend my time campaigning against antique leather items.</div>
</div>
<br>
That's fine. Your ethical reasoning makes sense to me, but it's simply a little different than mine.
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top