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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
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Bob
gives this huge introduction starting with opposition to humane meat... aka we need to spell it out, you gotta go vegan
avoiding telling people to go vegan a primary dxe strategy
animal betrayal specialists - Bruce Freidreick invites Wayne to his house, spokesperson for humane meat
FARM cannot distinguish between animal advocates and animal killers
dxe says promoting veganism is consumerist, makes it about us when it's about them, but people aren't connecting the dots, if it's a baseline you have to atleast mention it
dxe seems to fill another meat industry void
Wayne
veganism is non participation, we need to intervene to stop this as the moral baseline
slave free products, Baltimore 1826, example of boycott as a strategy being a failure, collection action
dxe isn't welfarist, they use typically single issue demonstrations to advocate animal liberation
liberation vs rights is an irrelevant semantics, confused about terminology
Humane Mythe has been added to the popular conversation
Gary
advocating veganism is the active thing, more than non participation
boycott of slave products instead of opposing slavery directly/politically
dxe is just another new welfarist organization
liberation associated with singer introduces a betrayal to the vegan philosophy, killing replacement animals who will live an equally pleasant life, etc
decentralization creates confusion around rights vs welfare, animal confusion movement
PETA talking about humane myth while promoting Bell and Evans chicken
2
Bob
corporate charities are industry collaborators
steel leg hold ban was a scam, switched to padded leg hold traps
bans don't work, foir gras for example, nobody wanted to enforce it and restaurants were giving it for free and charging $20 for a cracker
HSUS is apart of an international livestock federation and giving out bacon coupons
Wayne
Garys argument was correct - there are counter productive single issue campaigns that serve as marketing platforms for industry
fur free Friday march had more vegan signs
20k animals can be saved from torment with a fur ban
target campaigns that we can win now will build momentum, incremental change for social justice
we may not agree on everything, we are stronger together
Gary
Wayne is still denigrating veganism
nothing will happen until we have a huge number of vegans who are committed to the justice principles
in order to have coalitions it requires people who believe what they are doing is less morally bad than others, aka fur vs leather
Welfarists are working with PETA when they give rewards to slaughter house designers...
we need a paradigm shift, that won't happen incrementally
stronger together implies we are unified in what it is we want
Welfarism is the philosophy of slaughter house workers and factory farmers, I'm sure Mr Industrial Ass Rape here considers what he's doing as not evil or an abomination Industrial Ass Rape GIF | Gfycat
It seems like the fundamental divide between welfarism and abolition is the same divide within the rest of moral philosophy, Consequentialism vs Deontology... Trolley problems with 50 million nazis and Anne Frank aside, does the only thing that matters is how much suffering is caused or do rights violations actually make a difference? Imagine they gave the animals a pill to maximize a 24/7 euphoric adrenaline rush but they were still enslaved to cages/farms they don't have the keys to, still have their babies stolen from them regardless of consent, still killed when someone else decides it's time for them to die? Or does the lack of suffering not really change any of that? According to Elon Musk it doesn't and to such a horrifying extent that he's willing to experiment with the chipping of the brains of livestock (most abusive thing you can do to another being)...
There's also an Epistemological element to all of this too, as if farmers are going to share all of the times they use fear and violence to control their animals on some guided tour, you simply cannot be sure if you are not there to verify. Welfarism is all about trying to get people comfortable not being vegan, but psychology is not philosophy (you can explain the exact behavior of every neuron in the brain of a mathematician when he gives a proof, doesn't explain if he got the proof correct).
Often times the consequentialism vs deontology divide also determines what side you're on in terms of the "Social Engineering vs Philosophical Collaboration" approach... as if it's a difference between tribalism and idealism... clearly I'm on the "culture is a cult" side of things and as vegans are in the super minority, it seems hard to believe anyone could believe they could win that fight anyways... retreating from that planet of the apes poo slinging mess and standing up with principles, might does not make right, and our cause will survive!
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