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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Something is going on with me (fatigue, aches, lack of interest, some congestion and stomach issues). I believe it's related to seasonal environmental allergies which are aggravated and inflamed by something I'm eating. So, I went to see a dietitian. She is very open-minded and is not your typical nutritionist. But, she was concerned about my protein intake. I have been vegetarian since about 2003, and I will admit that in the past I relied heavily on processed food-- white flour and meat subs. She encouraged me to eat meat because of my protein intake...that my body wants it, etc. She sent me this article http://editor.nourishedmagazine.com....a-radical-view

I gave meat a try with a humanely raised game hen. I admit...the taste took me back to my grandma's home. But, then I also remembered her slaughtering chickens in the yard. Then, I started thinking about this particular chicken I was eating- the specifics of it's life. I also started thinking about what makes one animal's life more important than another. I was disgusted that I had been talked into eating this.

While I can understand the arguments presented in the article, as a vegetarian, I always saw my view as "doing the least harm that I can possibly live with." So, I don't eat meat and only eat humanely raised local dairy (I can even see the problem with that). The point that vegetable and grain farming can kill animals incidentally doesn't convince me to include meat in my diet, which is a point a lot of meat eaters make. I have to eat food and veggies are doing the less harm.

I was hoping to get some support from people who think like me. My husband says that I need to do what I want that these things don't matter to him-- he eats meat when we go out. His opinion matters to me, because once after a wedding where BBQ was served I chose not to eat it and after he told me how proud of me he was because I was so strong.

This struggle is really causing me strife. I want to feel better, but I cannot get over directly taking an animals life.
 

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Beans, legumes, nuts and seeds are chockfull of protein! As are some grains, quinoa for example. Meat certainly isn't the only way to get protein. (You can eat eggs too, if you do eat those.)
 

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definitely beans and lentils but are you getting enough calories? your symptoms could be allergies but also maybe depression might be in there? you might want to see a doctor for those symptoms.
 

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the guy who wrote that article has a degree in mathematics & philosophy. what does that article even have to do with nutrition? maybe you should look for a nutritionist that has worked with vegetarians.

i agree with you on the incidental harm issue. think of how many more animals would be incidentally harmed providing food for the animals you would eat if you went back to eating meat. you seem like you know what you want to do. you can carefully monitor your protein if your concerned and see where it takes you.
 

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Riot Nrrrd
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It's late, so I'll be brief ... at least for now.

If I was Mr. Eisenstein I'd be flat out embarrassed to have this article published under my byline.

I'd ask the dietician for actual DIETARY information for starters. Maybe something relating to her concerns as a dietician, rather than condescending new agey BS. Heck, he doesn't even get things correct in the field he supposedly studies! (In particular his understanding of Descartes is ... well, wonky) Not to mention adopting the MISunderstanding of quantum mechanics typical of such non-scientists as Deepak Chopra and ... well, really, pick a 'guru' or pop psych charlatan. Misrepresenting and flaunting a misunderstanding of quantum physics is all the rage in that crowd.

Heh. This guy is touching a nerve.

Anyway ...

I really think a dietician should be advising you on dietary issues, not spiritual matters. If there are specific concerns about protein consumption you have a right to expect those to be detailed and explained to you.

I got all the way through that without bashing the Weston A Price Foundation! I must be in a good mood. It concerns me, though, that a dietician would be giving clients propaganda from an organization set up to promote fringe dietary theories from the early twentieth century that have been long debunked.
 

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Riot Nrrrd
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Quote:
She is very open-minded
You know what they say about being too open minded! All the goopy stuff we think with falls out.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in MPLS View Post

I'd ask the dietician for actual DIETARY information for starters. Maybe something relating to her concerns as a dietician, rather than condescending new agey BS. Heck, he doesn't even get things correct in the field he supposedly studies! (In particular his understanding of Descartes is ... well, wonky) Not to mention adopting the MISunderstanding of quantum mechanics typical of such non-scientists as Deepak Chopra and ... well, really, pick a 'guru' or pop psych charlatan. Misrepresenting and flaunting a misunderstanding of quantum physics is all the rage in that crowd.
You're tellin' me... can't believe that man has a degree in it o_O

In reference to your dietician: there is no magical substance in meat that suddenly makes you well. Every bit on nutrition from meat products can be found in abundance in plant sources. If protein intake is your problem, then as others have said; pulses, beans, lentils, veggies, etc. But it sounds like protein isn't the issue. Could be dairy-related; that was the source of my digestion issues and fatigue.
 

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Vegetarians and vegans consistently rank as getting "adequate or excessive dietary protein" by most actual nutritionists who study us. It's extremely hard not to get enough unless you're eating a lot of junk food. Beans, legumes, whole grains, soy, etc. are all excellent sources but honestly there's protein in almost everything. I don't think I've ever once gotten as low as 4 grams per day. I typically get way over 16, at the very least.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks everyone. I should say that I knew before going to her that's it not a typical nutritionist situation, but I actually thought that she would be more supportive of a veggie lifestyle. Not to say that she wasn't because she said it was what I felt comfortable with.

I am using My Plate to track calories and protein. Yesterday I got around 100 calories under what I should I have eaten. This morning with a boiled egg (from a local farmer), a grilled tomato, and a piece of homemade GF bean bread with butter, 2 cups of coffee I already got 13 g of protein.

Once I figure my food allergies out, which I really think are from eating over-processed breads and dairy in combo with environmental allergens, I should be able to add local organic yogurt in once a day and that will bump up my protein intake a lot.

Thanks, again. I'll be back to check the thread later
 

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It's appalling to me that she would try to make you go against your moral convictions when she could have simply suggested plant based sources of protein, which are in abundance. I consider that extremely rude and would probably see another nutritionist, especially if she gave me that article. But unfortunately, I've also experienced bias from doctors assuming I'm anemic or deficient in some way (I'm naturally pale and burn instead of tan - very fair skin) when after blood tests, I turned out to be doing great. My current doctor seems to be very supportive. Hope your nutritionist starts respecting your choices and works with you rather than attempting to convert you.

Also, if you think you may be having issues with dairy, would soy yogurt or some other non-dairy yogurt work out better for you? Good luck!

Edit: That article seems awful, assuming the central reason one becomes vegetarian is to avoid killing ALL living beings. For many, it's actually about minimizing suffering and exploitation. Plants do not have the nervous systems or level of awareness that is necessary to feel pain and suffering. So because birds, rodents and insects can be killed in the production of your plant-based foods, and killing seems to be unavoidable, you should just give up and also support other forms of cruelty and killing? No, it's about minimizing as much as is practical for yourself. I also see a difference between making an animal suffer, exploiting them and killing them for their body and things that belong to them (their meat, milk, eggs, skin, fur, whatever else) rather than accidental deaths in the cultivation process or deaths caused by preventing them from getting into the crops, although all are unfortunate.

There are also vegetarians that do not do it for animal welfare or animal rights reasons and instead do it for their health, for the environment, for their spirituality which are also very valid. That article just seems like a total crock to me and the author doesn't seem to get it.

Edit edit: Some protein ideas - any variation of whole grain rice and/or beans, bean burritos, bean salad, lentil soup, anything tofu (tofu scramble mmm...), quinoa - can be made sweet for breakfast or savory for lunch/dinner, I have a delicious brownie recipe that includes black beans if you're into sweets, whole grain toast and nut butters, chickpea salad, hummus as a dip or spread, edamame, soy milk/yogurt, split pea soup, there are so many options available. Your nutritionist seems lazy to me in thinking that MEAT = PROTEIN!
Makes me wonder if she also believes all we eat is iceberg lettuce salad or berries and twigs. Sheesh.
 

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Once you make sure you're eating enough foods with protein I would suggest taking vitamins occasionally, it might help you a little more though vitamins are kind of useless unless you're lacking in an area such as you are.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittlerabbit View Post

..
I am using My Plate to track calories and protein. Yesterday I got around 100 calories under what I should I have eaten. This morning with a boiled egg (from a local farmer), a grilled tomato, and a piece of homemade GF bean bread with butter, 2 cups of coffee I already got 13 g of protein.
..
Eating too little calories can make you feel the way you had described in your first post (weakness, fatigue, lack of energy). You could eat 1000 calories a day of animal meat and cheese still feel like crap. Sometimes its QUANTITY, not always quality (not saying that animal protein is more quality than plant protein!) that matters in the big picture.

I would also agree that an RD trying to get a vegetarian to eat meat for protein isn't very 'open-minded'. Voracious Vegan, anyone?


Let's have no more repeats of that, PLEASE!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Rhys, I completely agree with the minimizing. I became vegetarian because my bf at the time was and he was very concerned about animal welfare. He didn't convince me to stop eating meat but rather him just being vegetarian got me curious which lead to researching. He always said that it was about minimizing suffering, which is what I agree with.

This morning, the more I was thinking about it the more I was think that I may have wasted my money going to her. Her site talked about whole foods, which I completely agree with. We didn't talk about specifics about my diet, which I thought was the point. Some of the stuff we talked about was good information. She did give me a shopping guide from the Weston A. Price Foundation. Mostly the guide just tells you to buy sensible things....pretty much how I eat any way. However, I don't agree with going crazy with butter.

The guide doesn't get into the specifics of this guy's nutritional theory. What's the real deal with it?? From a minimal look at the site it just seems- well- off .

Another thing why do people think you only have two options 1. eat meat or 2. eat over-processed GMO soy products???

Sigh. I just want some honest help- a balance between science and listening to your body's intuition.
 

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Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

I would also agree that an RD trying to get a vegetarian to eat meat for protein isn't very 'open-minded'. Voracious Vegan, anyone?


Let's have no more repeats of that, PLEASE!!
Agreed!
 

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Bottom line: EAT MORE (veg*n) STUFF!!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittlerabbit View Post

Rhys, I completely agree with the minimizing. I became vegetarian because my bf at the time was and he was very concerned about animal welfare. He didn't convince me to stop eating meat but rather him just being vegetarian got me curious which lead to researching. He always said that it was about minimizing suffering, which is what I agree with.

This morning, the more I was thinking about it the more I was think that I may have wasted my money going to her. Her site talked about whole foods, which I completely agree with. We didn't talk about specifics about my diet, which I thought was the point. Some of the stuff we talked about was good information. She did give me a shopping guide from the Weston A. Price Foundation. Mostly the guide just tells you to buy sensible things....pretty much how I eat any way. However, I don't agree with going crazy with butter.

The guide doesn't get into the specifics of this guy's nutritional theory. What's the real deal with it?? From a minimal look at the site it just seems- well- off .

Another thing why do people think you only have two options 1. eat meat or 2. eat over-processed GMO soy products???

Sigh. I just want some honest help- a balance between science and listening to your body's intuition.
You can get that balance, I would suggest trying to plan your meals with certain nutrients in mind and don't worry about getting seconds on food! You seem to be needing more food anyway. If you're not getting enough calories it does make sense that you could be deficient too. I think I was told that people were at least suppose to eat 1'200 calories to get enough nutrients but I think you should aim for 1'500
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by alittlerabbit View Post

Rhys, I completely agree with the minimizing. I became vegetarian because my bf at the time was and he was very concerned about animal welfare. He didn't convince me to stop eating meat but rather him just being vegetarian got me curious which lead to researching. He always said that it was about minimizing suffering, which is what I agree with.

This morning, the more I was thinking about it the more I was think that I may have wasted my money going to her. Her site talked about whole foods, which I completely agree with. We didn't talk about specifics about my diet, which I thought was the point. Some of the stuff we talked about was good information. She did give me a shopping guide from the Weston A. Price Foundation. Mostly the guide just tells you to buy sensible things....pretty much how I eat any way. However, I don't agree with going crazy with butter.

The guide doesn't get into the specifics of this guy's nutritional theory. What's the real deal with it?? From a minimal look at the site it just seems- well- off .

Another thing why do people think you only have two options 1. eat meat or 2. eat over-processed GMO soy products???

Sigh. I just want some honest help- a balance between science and listening to your body's intuition.
A medical professional that gives you information to a group (Winston A. Price Foundation) that endorses eating unpasteurized dairy products?!

Are you sure this lady isn't in cahoots with the pharmaceutical indusrty that's gonna sell you antibiotics for a salmonella infection?!


More advice: seek out new help. Calculate your BMI (basal metabolic intake, or how many kcals you need in order to be alive) and eat that much plus more, adjusted for activity. Here is a nice little link that allows you to do that: http://health.discovery.com/centers/...sal/basal.html
Websites like VRG.org (Vegetarian Resource Group) or Sparkpeople.com have different meal plans you can follow based on that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ya, I was doing more research into the foundation- it just clicked what it was- the logic just isn't there. Like I said, I hate the argument that animal products are used in everyday things and animals die incidentally in harvest. They seem to promote that a lot as a reason to eat meat. It doesn't make sense. We're killing animals anyway so let's kill more. Huh??

I do like raw milk. BUT, I would drink it at my aunt's house who only had two cows and could be careful about milking. I think it can be good but you have to be very careful. For most people, it just isn't practical. We buy low pasteurized non-homogenized milk from a local dairy, and we haven't had a problem.
 
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