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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently had 2 conversations/experiences that were quite disconcerting and I would like your input.<br><br>
1.<br>
Friend of a friend: Here, have some pizza.<br>
Me: No thanks, I am a vegan.<br>
Him: Oh, is that a religious thing.<br>
Me: No, I'm an atheist.<br>
Him: Then what do you care, if you don't believe in Heaven eat anything you want.<br><br>
That comment made me realize that most religious people are vegetarians for the wrong reason. My dad has been an omnivore all his life, but my mom is a vegetarian. But she could care less about animal suffering, she is a vegetarian because she thinks 'God' has a surveillance camera in the sky watching her every move.<br><br>
2.<br>
I was trying to convince 2 of my friends of our barbaric treatment of all animals so I showed them the 'Meet your Meat' video and some bits from 'Earthlings'.<br><br>
Friend 1: I love meat too much to be affected by this video. (I wanted to punch him in the face <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/mad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":mad:">. Whoever said that we would be vegetarians if slaughter-houses had glass walls was wrong. Humans have become callous and selfish <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":(">).<br><br>
Friend 2: These videos are an exception. I'm sure they are treated better than that most of the time. What about killing the animals quickly, without pain? What about fish, they don't feel pain? Aren't we supposed to eat them as we're part of the food chain? What about plants, they too are living beings, should we not eat them either? But if I were vegan, I wouldn't be able to eat pizza or gelato! (Yes, he actually said those words <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/shocked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":eek:">).<br><br>
I decided not to talk to them about this subject anymore as I figured it was a waste of time.<br><br>
Sorry about the randomness of this thread, but I have no vegan friends who I can talk to about this stuff.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>559beatles</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2907436"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
That comment made me realize that most religious people are vegetarians for the wrong reason.</div>
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You are wrong. I don't care why people go vegan or vegetarian, as long as they do it.
 

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I don't know many vegetarians that do so for religious reasons...a few 7th Day Adventists from near where I grew up, and some Indian/Hindu folks here.<br><br>
I have heard the "those are exceptional cases" argument before. I think it's hard to counteract sometimes unless you live near somewhere with a large farm/meat processing plant/dairy, etc.
 

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Some people aren't affected by those videos, nor do they care about the welfare of animals, and they never will.<br><br>
To assume that everyone should feel the same way as you about everything is going to cause you problems.<br><br>
You need to accept that some people have concern for animals and some don't.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>559beatles</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2907436"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I was trying to convince 2 of my friends of our barbaric treatment of all animals so I showed them the 'Meet your Meat' video and some bits from 'Earthlings'.<br><br>
Friend 1: I love meat too much to be affected by this video. (I wanted to punch him in the face <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/mad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":mad:">. Whoever said that we would be vegetarians if slaughter-houses had glass walls was wrong. Humans have become callous and selfish <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/sad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":(">).</div>
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I do the same thing with some of my friends. It's annoying when they tell me how sad and wrong it is and blah blah blah but continue to eat meat voraciously without even trying to reduce their consumption anyway. I actually went ahead and asked one of my friends whether he really felt anything when he watched it, and he said, "Yes, but it's just too inconvenient to change my dietary habits now. I'm lazy to change. That's just the way I am. I don't have the same discipline and willpower as you do." >_> Well, that just shows that he doesn't really care and doesn't really think it's "sad and wrong." Tsk. He should just go ahead and say that he doesn't care rather than be fake and pretend that he does. I was very disappointed actually, but I realized that most people have this attitude when my dad told me the very same thing (and a whole host of other people after that.) Non-veg*ns find it annoying when veg*ns "judge" them, but seeing this kind of attitude, it's not really difficult to see why veg*ns do sometimes.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kjesta</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2907496"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
You are wrong. I don't care why people go vegan or vegetarian, as long as they do it.</div>
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I'd agree, what people do is often more important than why.<br><br>
As a omnivore, I can see myself saying those things. It's a form of defence; people hate being wrong, and often can't admit it to themselves. So they'll dare themselves to watch those videos without flinching, and say things like that. And, deep down, they probably do know how it sounds, but they're just not ready to say that they and everyone they know is wrong about eating meat.<br><br>
So, there is hope. I became vegan, after all.<br><br>
Btw, as to the food chain argument; no one's denying that we ate meat for millennia, although it probably wasn't anywhere near as much as we do now. Now, however, we are rich and privileged enough that we don't need to hurt other creatures for food, for the most part (ignoring cases like a former poster who needs honey to combat his severe allergies; besides, on a very small scale, that kind of thing could probably be taken care of sustainably and kindly). Plus, I would say, we've never needed factory farming, nor are we 'supposed' to do it.
 

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On point one, you could say something like, "I'm not sure if there's a heaven but I'm certain there is a hell. Factory farms are hell on earth for animals as well as the people who work there."<br><br>
On point two, here is compelling evidence of the animal neglect and abuse that occurs on factory farms, please look to these lists of investigations:<br><a href="http://www.veganoutreach.org/video/" target="_blank">http://www.veganoutreach.org/video/</a><br><a href="http://www.animalvisuals.org/investigations" target="_blank">http://www.animalvisuals.org/investigations</a><br>
Abuse and neglect are common in factory farms. Anyone who doesn't believe it should go investigate it themselves.
 

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I'm a religious vegan but firmly dedicated to the liberation of non-human animals.
 

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I think people are confused about what goal(s) are most worth fighting for. We shouldn't be fighting for any one specific outcome (whether it's affirmative action, animal rights, pro-choice). We need to fight for people to use logically defensible reasoning in their decisions. Any commitment to animal rights will likely be short-lived and only go half-way if it's not based on the only logically defensible position--a recognition that species membership should not have any bearing on one's moral worth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kjesta</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2907496"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
You are wrong. I don't care why people go vegan or vegetarian, as long as they do it.</div>
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If people become veg*n for any other reason besides trying to end animal cruelty, they will continue to exploit them in others ways besides eating them. People in/from South East Asia are afraid to eat meat because it says not to do so in their holy books, yet they have no problem wearing leather, dairy farming, conducting research on animals, using them for entertainment/amusement etc.
 

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In some cases sure, but the animals that don't end up as these folks' dinner are surely better off, eh?
 

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On religion - specifically "secular rights" vs religion: One common critique of theories of rights is that they are based on Judeo-Christian assumptions - even self described secular variants.<br><br>
(I'm not a utilitarian, so don't bother asking me to defend that ideology <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> )<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">We need to fight for people to use logically defensible reasoning in their decisions.</div>
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You need both reason and emotion/intuition.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>559beatles</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2907597"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If people become veg*n for any other reason besides trying to end animal cruelty, they will continue to exploit them in others ways besides eating them. People in/from South East Asia are afraid to eat meat because it says not to do so in their holy books, yet they have no problem wearing leather, dairy farming, conducting research on animals, using them for entertainment/amusement etc.</div>
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Then they are not vegan. They're strict vegetarians, which is not the same. I stand by what I said above: if someone is vegan, I don't care for whatever reasons. And it's a hell of lot better than being omnivorous.
 

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To the original poster: I simply feel you pain. I don't have any vegan friends either. And I don't fit into any sterotypical vegan type community either. It can be isolating being vegan at times. Even with other vegans. I just continue to think of the animals. They are what matter.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">if someone is vegan, I don't care for whatever reasons</div>
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But you do, given the exchange<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">If people become veg*n for any other reason besides trying to end animal cruelty, they will continue to exploit them in others ways besides eating them</div>
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which was answered with<br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Then they are not vegan.</div>
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Not that I'm arguing the point of whether anyone should or shouldn't care about anyone's reason for doing anything. The disconnect between the posts jumped out at me is all.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Dave in MPLS</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2907851"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
You need both reason and emotion/intuition.</div>
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Using emotion and intuition for decisions? I think the world could use a whole heck of a lot more reasoning than it's currently using.
 

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Some people honestly don't care about animals. I think we veg*ns tend to assume that if more people were aware of what really goes on in the food industry, they'd give up meat -- since that's what we did -- but unfortunately, for some people that's just not the case at all. They will either try to rationalize it away, or they will blatantly say that they know what goes on but their own taste preferences/convenience is more important to them.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Dave in MPLS</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2907985"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
But you do, given the exchange<br><br>
which was answered with<br><br><br>
Not that I'm arguing the point of whether anyone should or shouldn't care about anyone's reason for doing anything. The disconnect between the posts jumped out at me is all.</div>
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I don't see your point? If someone is vegan, they don't use animal products and avoids animal cruelty whereever possible. Now I don't see why someone would go vegan healthwise, strict vegetarian would be a lot more logical seeing that they apparently don't give a sh*t about the animals, but what is it to me as long as they are vegan?<br><br>
Perhaps this is a semantics thing. Can you maybe rephrase your post and break it down for me? I feel like my non-native speaker thing might be a problem here. I just don't get what you're trying to tell me.
 

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The first person's comment about eating whatever you want because you do not believe in Heaven is a common issue.<br><br>
Religious people I encounter find it difficult to understand where morals really come from. If you are not in fear of punishment, or wishing for a great reward, then what's the point of having any morals? "I makes me feel good when I do something nice" and "It makes me feel bad when I hurt someone or something" just don't seem to be valid answers. It has little to do with veg*nism, but is a much broader misconception religious people have about the non-religious.<br><br>
As for the second conversation, I too thought all the videos and pictures I'd seen were great exaggerations. It's very hard to find unbiased opinions on the subject of animal cruelty, so as an onmi I didn't know what to believe. What changed my mind was getting out of my car to go look at a chicken truck that was getting gasoline. The chickens I looked at had the same issues, injuries, infections, and broken bones that I'd read about. One was missing her whole face. If I hadn't seen it myself, I wouldn't have believed it was really possible that it was that bad.<br><br>
As for the "I love meat too much to be affected by this video" comment, he was probably in a position where he felt like he had to be defensive. People generally don't like going "OMGosh!!! I was wrong!" and will say anything to avoid admitting fault. Let people watch the video alone by themselves so they're not feeling like their reaction is under a microscope. They'll close of like that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kjesta</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908448"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't see your point? If someone is vegan, they don't use animal products and avoids animal cruelty whereever possible. Now I don't see why someone would go vegan healthwise, strict vegetarian would be a lot more logical seeing that they apparently don't give a sh*t about the animals, but what is it to me as long as they are vegan?<br><br>
Perhaps this is a semantics thing. Can you maybe rephrase your post and break it down for me? I feel like my non-native speaker thing might be a problem here. I just don't get what you're trying to tell me.</div>
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First of all, let me say that I didn't want to offend anyone. We're all on the same side here.<br>
It is a semantics issue.<br>
When I said "If people become veg*n for any other reason besides trying to end animal cruelty, they will continue to exploit them in others ways besides eating them", by v*gan, I meant vegan and vegetarian. I should have just said vegetarian instead of v*gan.<br>
Also, in the first post, I used the word vegetarian to describe the people who were like that for a wrong reason.<br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Hazelnut</strong> <a href="/forum/post/2908468"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
The first person's comment about eating whatever you want because you do not believe in Heaven is a common issue.<br><br>
Religious people I encounter find it difficult to understand where morals really come from. If you are not in fear of punishment, or wishing for a great reward, then what's the point of having any morals? "I makes me feel good when I do something nice" and "It makes me feel bad when I hurt someone or something" just don't seem to be valid answers. It has little to do with veg*nism, but is a much broader misconception religious people have about the non-religious.<br><br>
As for the second conversation, I too thought all the videos and pictures I'd seen were great exaggerations. It's very hard to find unbiased opinions on the subject of animal cruelty, so as an onmi I didn't know what to believe. What changed my mind was getting out of my car to go look at a chicken truck that was getting gasoline. The chickens I looked at had the same issues, injuries, infections, and broken bones that I'd read about. One was missing her whole face. If I hadn't seen it myself, I wouldn't have believed it was really possible that it was that bad.<br><br>
As for the "I love meat too much to be affected by this video" comment, he was probably in a position where he felt like he had to be defensive. People generally don't like going "OMGosh!!! I was wrong!" and will say anything to avoid admitting fault. Let people watch the video alone by themselves so they're not feeling like their reaction is under a microscope. They'll close of like that.</div>
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I completely agree with you. I guess I'm twice as vulnerable to scrutiny and mis-judgement, being a vegan and an athiest <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/tongue3.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":p">.
 
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