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Discussion Starter #1
<span style="font-family:'Century Gothic';">Taken from the <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?p=1342826&posted=1#post1342826" target="_blank">About PETA</a> thread.<br><br></span>
<div class="quote-container"><span style="font-family:'Century Gothic';"><span>Quote:</span></span>
<div class="quote-block"><span style="font-family:'Century Gothic';">Originally Posted by <strong>honeyfugle</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
...in my eyes the ALF are a terrorist organisation. but, saying that, i don't condemn what they do, because they actively help the lives of animals.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:'Century Gothic';"><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/rifle.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":gun:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/veganpolice.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":notvegan:"><br><br>
I dont know about ALF, but I tend to condemn militant activism. Although it may save some lives, in the long run it is counter productive, and energies would be better spent on outreach.<br><br><br><br>
Erik Marcus said, "Imagine driving a tractor trailer to a chicken farm on a moonless night, successfully loading the trailer with two thousand birds, and then making a successful escape. Then imagine driving those birds to an animal sanctuary, and shouldering their enormous feed, shelter, and veterinary bills.<br><br><br><br>
Such and audacious act would surely do enormous good for two thousand chickens, but it would also create a number of difficulties for the movement. Animal agriculture would gain the opportunity to suggest that the perpetrator is a common criminal--and much of the public would likely agree with this assessment. The raid would give poultry producers one more reason to boost security, which would in turn limit the ability of dismantlement activists to photograph and publicize farm conditions. Most important, the activist would, if caught, be charged with multiple felonies and probably do substantial prison time. And it's difficult to help animals from a prison cell.<br><br><br><br>
By contrast, doing outreach that convinces just one college student to become vegan would save even more animal lives than the hypothetical raid I just described. An average twenty-year-old would normally eat two thousand birds over the next fifty years. There would be no negative repercussions that the movement would bear from convincing a twenty-year-old to stop eating meat. Quite to the contrary, the meat industry would loose a customer, and the dismantlement movement would gain an activist."</span>
 

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Marcus's example doesn't seem very convincing to me. Labelling the person "a common criminal"? Yes, probably, because animals are considered property. Actions like this make it very clear that not everyone considers them property. And what will someone trespassing in order to take photographs be labelled, if not a criminal? Wasn't someone just recently sentenced because of taking photographs? Is Marcus against any illegal photographing too? It will likewise raise security too.<br><br><br><br>
Personally, I would love an action like that, in any case its symbolic value: someone trying to save chickens before omnis get their greedy hands on them.<br><br><br><br>
I also dislike calling a completely non-violent action like the one Marcus described "militant" (which description is implied by the inclusion of the example in a thread about militancy). You can call destruction of property militant, but saving some chickens from the slaughterhouse?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
And what will someone trespassing in order to take photographs be labelled, if not a criminal? Wasn't someone just recently sentenced because of taking photographs? Is Marcus against any illegal photographing too? It will likewise raise security too.<br><br><br><br>
Personally, I would love an action like that, in any case its symbolic value: someone trying to save chickens before omnis get their greedy hands on them.<br><br><br><br>
I also dislike calling a completely non-violent action like the one Marcus described "militant" (which description is implied by the inclusion of the example in a thread about militancy). You can call destruction of property militant, but saving some chickens from the slaughterhouse?</div>
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Heh, its interesting you mention photographing. This is the only form of illegal activity he approves of, under certain conditions. He says that, "During the struggle for independence, Gandhi advocated breaking a variety of oppressive laws. The key is that he urged people to break these laws openly and offer up themselves to legal prosecution.<br><br><br><br>
In the late 1990's, activist Patty Mark adapted Gandhi's approach by pioneering the concept of 'open rescues.' Using this technique, Mark and her colleagues entered Australia's factory farms while carrying cameras to document the conditions. Mark refused to damage property, and if she had to cut a lock to gain access to a building she would pay to have it replaced. If she encountered any animals who were in dire need of veterinary care, or otherwise suffering enormously, Mark would perform a rescue and take the animals to a hidden shelter.<br><br><br><br>
With this accomplished, Mark then notified the media and the police of her actions. The resultant press coverage was incredibly favorable. Rather than coming off as common criminals, Mark and the other activists involved in open rescues were tarnishing the reputation of animal agriculture."<br><br><br><br>
And open rescues have been employed in the U.S., and have had great success.<br><br><br><br>
I think militancy can, without a doubt, inflict damage on the animal agriculture industry--and I'm all for the downfall of the industry. And I would love to deprive every omni of their chicken fix. I just don't think militancy, especially that with a terrorist feel, is the most effective approach; indeed, I think it is counterproductive to dismantling the animal agriculture industry (is there an abbreviation for this?) because it's benefits are limited but the potential to turn the public against activists (possibly even non-activist veg*ans) is unlimited. We <i>need</i> the public on our side, and not on the side of animal agriculture. Militancy that is not of the open rescue sort turns the public against activists and the movement as a whole. Lives can be saved without damage to activists public image and the cost of the public <i>gaining</i> sympathy for animal agriculture.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">With this accomplished, Mark then notified the media and the police of her actions. The resultant press coverage was incredibly favorable.</div>
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Just curious, have any links?
 

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Well open rescues are really great and I have nothing against them. And I agree with you that they have an enormous value in terms of how the general public perceives us, and if I was doing that kind of direct activism, open rescues would probably be my choice.<br><br><br><br>
I was just commenting on the particular example of using a truck to steal chickens, which doesn't sound militant to me, and I think it wouldn't have so many negative effects on the public either - at best, it could even spark some debate about animals as property. Breaking a lab and spraypainting "die you animal abusing scum" is another matter in that regard.<br><br><br><br>
And if Marcus is arguing from Gandhian premises, there is nothing wrong in "stealing" animals per se, provided that people turn themselves in afterwards (like I read some person in Sweden did).
 

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Discussion Starter #8
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Michael</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Just curious, have any links?</div>
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In the endnotes for that section he says, "Between August and November of 2002, Compassion Over Killing carried out a number of visits to the Red Bird Egg Farms, in Millington MD. Over the course of these visits, they conducted an open rescue involving ten hens. In December of 2002, the <i>New York Times</i> ran a lengthy and favorable piece about the rescue. This article was followed by coverage by the Associated Press, which was in turn printed in more than a hundred newspapers.<br><br><br><br>
Becker, Elizabeth. "<a href="http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20C13FA3C5F0C778CDDAB0994DA404482" target="_blank">Advocates for Animals Turn Attention to Chickens</a>." <i>New York Times</i>, December 4, 2002, Late Edition - Final , Section A : Page 20 , Column 1.<br><br><br><br>
Biemer, John. "<a href="http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/ap/597403411.html?did=597403411&FMT=ABS&FMTS=FT&date=Dec+5%2C+2002&author=JOHN+BIEMER&pub=Associated+Press&desc=Animal+rights+group+alleges+egg+farms+are+cruel+to+chickens+as+they+target+%22factory+farms.%22" target="_blank">Animal Right Group Alleges Egg Farms Cruel</a>" Associated Press. December 4, 2002.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
Stuff <i>I</i> found:<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.cok.net/camp/inv/eggscam/" target="_blank">Compassion Over Killing > Red Bird Egg Farm</a> (their site seems to not be working right now so I have not actually seen the content of this page)<br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.satyamag.com/mar04/mark.html" target="_blank">Opening Doors and Eyes to Animal Suffering: The <i>Abolitionist</i> Interview with Patty Mark</a><br><br><br><br><a href="http://www.openrescue.org/about/alv.html" target="_blank">Animal Liberation Victoria rescue directory</a>. If you scroll down you'll see what I think Marcus was talking about. Unfortunately it looks like the links toward the bottom are disabled.<br><br><br><br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_rescue" target="_blank">Open rescue - Wikipedia</a>: Contains reference to Gandhi, Patty Mark, and Animal Liberation Victoria.
 

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Militancy does not necessarily mean that Outreach cannot be done as well.<br><br><br><br>
And vice-versa.<br><br><br><br>
The animals are suffering NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br><br><br><br>
And you never even mentioned the TORTURE in the labs. Can you hear their screams in your sleep?
 

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If you are not speciescentric, then you tend to think of animals and their rights in the same way you think of humans and their rights.<br><br><br><br>
If you are speciescentric you will never understand the animal rights movement.<br><br><br><br>
It is MORE than compassion. It is thinking to yourself--"<i>How would I like to be treated like these animals are being treated?</i>" If you can honestly say you wouldn't mind being treated in a cruel and inhumane way, then ignore what is happening in factory farms and other places.<br><br><br><br>
However if you admit that you would not like yourself or anyone else treated that way, then perhaps you can at least understand why animal rights activists do the things they do.<br><br><br><br>
I was speciescentric all my life until I went to a zoo one day and looked into the eyes of a bonobo.<br><br><br><br>
** Note, this post has been edited by puppyluv to avoid any controversy.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>puppyluv</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
If you are not speciescentric, then you tend to think of animals and their rights in the same way you think of humans and their rights. Consider the following scenario:<br><br><br><br><i>Imagine riding down a moonless road at night in your wagon after successfully rescuing 20 black people from their slavemasters. Then imagine transporting these people to a non-slave state and shouldering their enormous food shelter and medical bills.......get the picture?</i><br><br><br><br>
If you are speciescentric you will never understand the animal rights movement.<br><br><br><br>
I was speciescentric all my life until I went to a zoo one day and looked into the eyes of a bonobo.</div>
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In case you are interested, you might like to know that black folk spoke for themselves, most often escaped on their own, and for the most part cared for themselves after slavery. Don't compare us to animals. Thanks.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tame</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
In case you are interested, you might like to know that black folk spoke for themselves, most often escaped on their own, and for the most part cared for themselves after slavery. Don't compare us to animals. Thanks.</div>
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I was afraid a black person would take that wrong. That is really too bad, because I was not speaking to your ethnicity. I was speaking to the fact that oriental, black, white or otherwise, we are all on this world together and we should try to live in harmony with each other---all trying to help each other. If you can't see that, maybe your ethnocentric veiws are getting in the way. I would have said the same thing I said if it had been blacks helping whites. Perhaps you can give us an example---I'm sure there are many. And humans ARE animals, albeit smart animals, but animals nonetheless. Until we humans realize that, we will continue to abuse other animals. If you think I was saying blacks are animals and whites are not, you are very wrong. I am white and I consider myself part of the animal kingdom.<br><br><br><br>
ps: Oh and another thing, if you notice, I did not say what color the people driving the wagon were. Who said they were not black? In fact, for all you knew when you read my original post, I may very well have been black.
 

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Puppyluv,<br><br><br><br>
Amen to both of your previous posts. Well said. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":up:">
 

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Well said, Puppyluv.<br><br><br><br>
(Don't mind the touchy people who misread your posts deliberately (what's the bet that one day you will be called a racist or something because you dared make a historical analogy). Leave them to cope with their touchiness and get on with walking your talk that you do so well.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>puppyluv</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I was afraid a black person would take that wrong. That is really too bad, because I was not speaking to your ethnicity. I was speaking to the fact that oriental, black, white or otherwise, we are all on this world together and we should try to live in harmony with each other---all trying to help each other. If you can't see that, maybe your ethnocentric veiws are getting in the way.</div>
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Now how on earth am I ethnocentric for pointing out that some of us don't like our struggle for freedom, which was achieved mostly through our own efforts, being compared to that of animals who have no part in their struggle? If you don't see how that trivializes what African Americans have accomplished, then I can't help you.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I would have said the same thing I said if it had been blacks helping whites.</div>
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Whites don't have a history being called less than human by blacks.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Perhaps you can give us an example---I'm sure there are many.</div>
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Um...because it isn't pertinent to my point?<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">And humans ARE animals, albeit smart animals, but animals nonetheless. Until we humans realize that, we will continue to abuse other animals. If you think I was saying blacks are animals and whites are not, you are very wrong. I am white and I consider myself part of the animal kingdom.</div>
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And if you don't understand the history of trying to remove blacks from humanity by the dominant culture, then again, I can't help you.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><br>
ps: Oh and another thing, if you notice, I did not say what color the people driving the wagon were. Who said they were not black? In fact, for all you knew when you read my original post, I may very well have been black.</div>
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No, I am pretty certain you weren't. And I was right.
 

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Thank you compassionate1 and Diana. The funny thing is that when I wrote that scenario about the days in which humans in the US enslaved other humans, I was thinking about Harriett Tubman, the great leader of the "underground railroad" as she led thousands of her people to freedom. Yes whites may have helped and both blacks and whites were abolitionists, but, as I said, I was thinking about Harriett Tubman. I once saw a wonderful docu-drama about her life starring Cicily Tyson and I shall never forget it. It is only when we quit thinking in terms of black vs. white and human vs. non-human that we shall all truly be able to treat one another as fellow sojourners on this earth.
 

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Dear Tame,<br><br><br><br>
You are right, I only know what I read and most history books are probably written by whites. I do not have the oral tradition passed down from generation to generation and therefore can't possible understand how it felt for your ancestors or you. I can only care and I do. But for you to make it sound like I am a condescending patronizing person is really not fair. You don't know me either. You have no idea what ethnicity I am other than I am not black. You don't know anything about my ancestry or heritage either. I may not feel the way you feel because I can't be in your skin, but I do know that any mistreatment of anyone is wrong. Why don't you mention what we all have in common and that is our humanity. As the highest order in the animal kingdom and possessing the highest intellect, we should all learn to be caring and compassionate to our fellow human beings as well as other living beings. This thread is about how we should or should not go about it. You were right, I am not black but my people do have a very long history of being persecuted.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>puppyluv</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
But for you to make it sound like I am a condescending patronizing person is really not fair.</div>
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But that is how it comes across, and the AR movement needs to wake up to the reality that some minority groups have a history of being compared to animals in a negative way.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">You don't know me either. You have no idea what ethnicity I am other than I am not black. You don't know anything about my ancestry or heritage either.</div>
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I never said I did.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">I may not feel the way you feel because I can't be in your skin, but I do know that any mistreatment of anyone is wrong.</div>
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Okay.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Why don't you mention what we all have in common and that is our humanity.</div>
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Because that isn't relevant to what we are discussing.<br><br><br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">As the highest order in the animal kingdom and possessing the highest intellect, we should all learn to be caring and compassionate to our fellow human beings as well as other living beings. This thread is about how we should or should not go about it. You were right, I am not black but my people do have a very long history of being persecuted.</div>
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Have I criticized what you care about? No.<br><br>
I do take issue with your comparison for the reasons I have mentioned. If you meant no offense, then fine. But it's something that shouldn't be done.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>CoolPercussion</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><span style="font-family:'Century Gothic';">Taken from the <a href="http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?p=1342826&posted=1#post1342826" target="_blank">About PETA</a> thread.<br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/rifle.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":gun:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/veganpolice.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":notvegan:"><br><br>
I dont know about ALF, but I tend to condemn militant activism. Although it may save some lives, in the long run it is counter productive, and energies would be better spent on outreach.<br><br><br><br>
Erik Marcus said, "Imagine driving a tractor trailer to a chicken farm on a moonless night, successfully loading the trailer with two thousand birds, and then making a successful escape. Then imagine driving those birds to an animal sanctuary, and shouldering their enormous feed, shelter, and veterinary bills.<br><br><br><br>
Such and audacious act would surely do enormous good for two thousand chickens, but it would also create a number of difficulties for the movement. Animal agriculture would gain the opportunity to suggest that the perpetrator is a common criminal--and much of the public would likely agree with this assessment. The raid would give poultry producers one more reason to boost security, which would in turn limit the ability of dismantlement activists to photograph and publicize farm conditions. Most important, the activist would, if caught, be charged with multiple felonies and probably do substantial prison time. And it's difficult to help animals from a prison cell.<br><br><br><br>
By contrast, doing outreach that convinces just one college student to become vegan would save even more animal lives than the hypothetical raid I just described. An average twenty-year-old would normally eat two thousand birds over the next fifty years. There would be no negative repercussions that the movement would bear from convincing a twenty-year-old to stop eating meat. Quite to the contrary, the meat industry would loose a customer, and the dismantlement movement would gain an activist."</span></div>
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One of the things people tend to get caught up with is an all or nothing outlook: it's either direct action or outreach, but it can't be both! But that's simply not the case. We can do both, and some people are better at one or the other anyway.<br><br><br><br>
So the question then is if one is significantly more effective than the other. I remember reading Meat Market as well, and I remember that Erik's point is that we need to be the most effective activists possible. Good point. But is non-direct action that much more effective? Can the movement succeed without direct action?<br><br><br><br>
Let's say that the goal is total animal liberation as to relieve all animal suffering in the hands of humans. So, eventually, the use of all animal products and labors must be abolished. Obviously everyone will need to be vegan. Vegan outreach is obviously very efficient, it gets to the root of the problem. But do vegan outreach measures appeal to everyone? No. Can they? No. Some people are just *******s, and thats the way it will always be. People are sexist, racist, classist, homophobic, and in general, bigots. Imagine how well the womens rights movement would have gone over if we simply waited for all men to deem woman worthy of rights, or how long it would have taken to abolish slavery if we waited for all slave owners to set their slaves free. It would never have happened.<br><br><br><br>
The example you gave with the 2000 chickens was pretty useless (was it useless to make it easier to make the point?) as far as animal liberation goes. 2000 Chickens isnt going to break a farm. But what about other direct action efforts: releasing a farm full of mink to shut down the farm, for example. Or the SHAC campaign which gets closer to shutting down HLS in the UK everyday.<br><br><br><br>
There has never been a successful social change movement that hasnt included so called militant actions. Emphasis is placed on people like MLK and Gandhi and their respected peaceful protests, while condemning militant actions BECAUSE exclusively non-militant movements dont achieve anything. They never have, and probably never will. As someone whos been an activist for peace since they were 14 thats something I hate to say. But if it wasnt for the Black Panther party, the civil rights movement wouldnt have achieved much in the way of its goals, and as for Gandhi, he just wasnt as big of a part of liberating India as the history books make him out to be.<br><br><br><br>
Outreach efforts are only effective to a point, and that point is where direct action picks up the slack.<br><br><br><br>
Forgive my rambling musings, as this is the first time Ive written these thoughts.
 
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