VeggieBoards banner

Might packaging be non-vegan?

11K views 50 replies 8 participants last post by  JohnHoltt 
#1 ·
Might the ink in the print on packaging and labels, the glue used to keep cardboard boxes closed, and the adhesive on envelopes, for starters, be non-vegan?
 
#4 ·
Lots of companies produce packaging

There are animal products hidden in a lot of products, and until primary animal agriculture is a thing of the past, the side-products of animal use will find their way in to these products. This is due to by-products from a large industry tend to be cheap. Striving to find packaging and other items that do no not include any potential animal products is admirable, and will eventually become a greater focus in main stream veganism in the future, but for now the fight against the primary use of animals is the focus as it is the primary driver for animal agriculture.

IE. The only reason why glues, inks, solder flux etc have animal by-products in them is because there is a massive animal agriculture industry caused by demand for primary products (meat, eggs, dairy, etc).

If you can find packaging that does not involve animal by-products, then great! And share that info with us here! By try not to let that interfere with the big fight, as IMHO this may end up creating a negative result (EG other people seeing veganism as "too hard" and making it less accessible to them)

The "possible and practicable" part of the definition is there for this very reason. If it becomes about purity, then it will be stuck in the water and not change the world for the better, for both humans and non human animals.

For reference, veganism is:
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude-as far as is possible and practicable-all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
Do you have sources detailing what animal products, or products produced using animal products, can be found in packaging?
 
#3 ·
There are animal products hidden in a lot of products, and until primary animal agriculture is a thing of the past, the side-products of animal use will find their way in to these products. This is due to by-products from a large industry tend to be cheap. Striving to find packaging and other items that do no not include any potential animal products is admirable, and will eventually become a greater focus in main stream veganism in the future, but for now the fight against the primary use of animals is the focus as it is the primary driver for animal agriculture.

IE. The only reason why glues, inks, solder flux etc have animal by-products in them is because there is a massive animal agriculture industry caused by demand for primary products (meat, eggs, dairy, etc).

If you can find packaging that does not involve animal by-products, then great! And share that info with us here! By try not to let that interfere with the big fight, as IMHO this may end up creating a negative result (EG other people seeing veganism as "too hard" and making it less accessible to them)

The "possible and practicable" part of the definition is there for this very reason. If it becomes about purity, then it will be stuck in the water and not change the world for the better, for both humans and non human animals.

For reference, veganism is:
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thalassa and Tom
#6 · (Edited)
The vast majority of modern adhesives are synthetic. Modern synthetic adhesives, such as epoxy, cyanoacrylate, silicone, polyurethane, and acrylic, are far superior to early adhesives made with animal collagen, dairy casein, plant starches, and tree sap. Synthetic adhesives are made by chemically-reacting base materials derived from petroleum and natural gas - example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

It is commonly believed that "white glue" (such as Elmer's glue) is made from animal material. The cartoon-drawing of a cow on the Elmer's glue bottle is perceived as proof of this. However, it's not true. Common white glue is polyvinyl acetate ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate ), a synthetic adhesive made by the polymerization of vinyl acetate, a monomer made from ethylene (derived from natural gas) and acetic acid (derived from petroleum-synthesized methanol, or from fermentation of plant sugars).

I can address your specific questions about cardboard box glue. Carton-sealing adhesives (cardboard box glue) are made from copolymer, homopolymer or EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate): https://www.glueit.com/category/applications/packaging/case-carton/ . Copolymer is a combination of different monomers, all of which are synthetically-produced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copolymer . Homopolymers are similar to copolymers, but they contain only one type of (synthetic) monomer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer#Monomers_and_repeat_units . EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate) is a specific type of copolymer, made from ethylene and vinyl acetate (both synthetics): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene-vinyl_acetate.

Animal-content adhesives still have limited use in certain low-quality applications, such as binding telephone books and junk mail. Regular books, however, are glued together with synthetic adhesives: http://www.adhesivesmag.com/articles/87133-bookbinding-adhesives . Telephone books, of course, have largely been made obsolete by the internet. If you would like to avoid receiving junk mail, you can contact the senders of junk mail materials.

Very small amounts of animal material are used in the processing of some plastics. For example, calcium stearate (made with stearic acid, which has historically been made from beef tallow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid) can be added to plastics as an acid neutralizer, processing lubricant, and release agent. The amount of added animal material is tiny; typically less than 1000 ppm, or 0.1%, of stearate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_stearate . Even this is being phased out for certain products, due to concerns over bovine spongiform encephalopathy ("mad cow disease"): https://www.nordsonmedical.com/newsletter/animal-free.htm .

Lots more information is available on this, although the topic is mostly academic, since modern adhesives (including hardware store glues) are all synthetic.

Glad to see that you are interested in this topic. As you can see, the answers to your questions can be found in industrial adhesive and polymer websites, and on Wikipedia.

If you are interested in helping to develop alternatives to other animal products, you might pursue a career in chemistry, biology, or food science.
.
.
 
#13 ·
Yes. I think it's far more beneficial to decrease all consumption in general rather than simply identifying the ones produced by slaughterhouse products. Buying things that are ethically grown and sustainably produced is more productive.
 
#19 ·
While I couldn't find anything relating to large scale slaughterhouses profits from rendering, I found this on smaller slaughterhouses which costs them to have their waste taken by rendering plants, and alludes to larger scale as more or less breaking even

It's near impossible to avoid everything that comes from the meat industry, and in some cases there are no other options.
The reality is that these by products would not be created without the slaughterhouse for meat. Take away the demand for meat and you take away the need to dispose of the waste.
Granted, there are items that would need to be reformulated, but as of now, there is no real need to recreate them, as there is such vast amounts of animal by products.

http://www.agmrc.org/media/cms/packinghousebyproducts_2DDB7A96C5100.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sue-cross/horse-meat-slaugtherhorse-veganism_b_2684502.html
Very graphic BTW

Companies have been forced to find ways to dispose of the excess.

Even beyond nit picking every bit, you have to realize you have your life to live. Ask yourself are you more productive talking about the joys of a vegan life, or being consumed by the stress over every thing you come in contact with?
I've had to take breaks every now and then from absolute veganism out of becoming too OCD to cope.
What is worth fighting for? The billions of animals killed needlessly every day for peoples dinner. Lose the slaughterhouse, you lose the rendering plants
 
#23 ·
I vaunt the joys in my life and I consider whether I could and should be doing more to be a better vegan.

And can I not stop additional animals being slaughtered by not purchasing things made/using by products while I am waiting for the rest of the world to stop eating meat? I apologise if this is conclusively covered in either of your articles that I have not fully read yet.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm sure other people in this thread are already addressing this, and from what I've seen they have, but I'll add my two cents.

We live in a highly complex, interconnected world, both naturally or ecologically, and via business, agriculture, etc. SO, when you actually abstain from the most harmful things (eating meat, eggs or dairy, and avoiding buying new wool, leather or fur) you actually are affecting supply and demand in a substantial way. The dairy industry is currently so hard hit in the US, they're mad at vegans for using the word "milk" to describe soy and nut or seed milks. This is awesome.

Also, if you have the time, money and resources, sure, please buy ink or shoes or sugar or wine that doesn't use negligible amounts of extraneous animal products (like bone char, fish bladders, or insect dyes) ...HOWEVER, just know, as long as people eat meat and fish and blah blah blah, there's going to be bone char and fish bladders used in refining. It's going to exist anyway, and again, please, if you are privileged enough or have been vegan long enough to use vegan ink, your efforts ARE worth it, because companies like Guinness do sometimes change.

I'm all for only buying 100 percent vegan products if you can, but this reminds me of pet food arguments. ..vegan cat food is expensive and hard to find, and pet food is made of cast off animal parts from human food anyway, so to deny carnivore animal companions meat or dairy based foods, which are merely a cast off from a greedy capitalist human society, seems like literally denying the dog scraps from under the table for no apparent reason. Maybe I'll change my mind some day, but being an environmentalist as well as a vegan, I doubt my attitude towards first world waste will change any time soon.
 
#22 ·
I'm sure other people in this thread are already addressing this, and from what I've seen they have, but I'll add my two cents.

We live in a highly complex, interconnected world, both naturally or ecologically, and via business, agriculture, etc. SO, when you actually abstain from the most harmful things (eating meat, eggs or dairy, and avoiding buying new wool, leather or fur) you actually are affecting supply and demand in a substantial way. The dairy industry is currently so hard hit in the US, they're mad at vegans for using the word "milk" to describe soy and nut or seed milks. This is awesome.

Also, if you have the time, money and resources, sure, please buy ink or shoes or sugar or wine that doesn't use negligible amounts of extraneous animal products (like bone char, fish bladders, or insect dyes) ...HOWEVER, just know, as long as people eat meat and fish and blah blah blah, there's going to be bone char and fish bladders used in refining. It's going to exist anyway, and again, please, if you are privileged enough or have been vegan long enough to use vegan ink, your efforts ARE worth it, because companies like Guinness do sometimes change.

I'm all for only buying 100 percent vegan products if you can, but this reminds me of pet food arguments. ..vegan cat food is expensive and hard to find, and pet food is made of cast off animal parts from human food anyway, so to deny carnivore animal companions meat or dairy based foods, which are merely a cast off from a greedy capitalist human society, seems like literally denying the dog scraps from under the table for no apparent reason. Maybe I'll change my mind some day, but being an environmentalist as well as a vegan, I doubt my attitude towards first world waste will change any time soon.
Of course people still make bone char and isinglass filters even though I completely avoid them (which is not expensive to do and it is not difficult). It is the same for meat and leather. All I can do is my part not to demand it, thereby also making the alternative to the animal product increasingly more attractive for a company to sell - and therefore a manufacturer to use - instead, like how Guinness as you say have abandoned isinglass filtration, and supermarkets are selling more plant-based milk, as more and more units of the alternative are more profitable to sell in place of the animal-derived units.

I'll need you to elaborate about cats. Surely you aren't saying that humans should continue to eat meat so that cats can eat the scraps, so that you don't have to pay for vegan food for your cat? I am sure I have things wrong, as I can't imagine a vegan who would say that, assuming you are one?
 
#26 ·
The Jain religion/culture of India is one of the oldest and most determinedly non-violent religions in the world. The Jains have been addressing questions similar to yours for at least 5,000 years.

All practicing Jains are vegetarian, and Jain monks and nuns make exceptional efforts to avoid the slightest violence towards even the tiniest animals. Below is a photo of Jain monks, with covers over their mouths (to avoid accidentally swallowing small insects) and with soft whisk brooms (used to gently sweep the path in front of themselves as they walk, so as to avoid stepping on insects).

 
  • Like
Reactions: Thalassa
#32 · (Edited)
No need for them to check! As I mentioned in my earlier post (substantiated by a link to an industrial adhesive publication), cardboard box adhesives are made from synthetic polymers.

Envelope glue is also vegan. Envelope glue is made from synthetic materials, or from natural rubber (comes from plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber), or from vinyl dextrin (vinyl is a synthetic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_group, dextrin is a natural material made from starch: https://www.cargill.com/bioindustrial/industrial-dextrins). See this webpage from HB Fuller, a large manufacturer of industrial adhesives: http://www.hbfuller.com/north-ameri...verting/envelope?product=yes&sectionid=757664

We are making a huge mistake on this thread. People are discussing animal-based adhesives as if they were commonly used the 21st century. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, animal-based adhesives are only used for gluing together low-quality publications, like telephone books and junk mail.

We need to stop making unsubstantiated claims. It just serves to increase people's ignorance. Please do your research before posting. And, by the way, "research" doesn't mean reading blogs and forums.
.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TailFin
#33 · (Edited)
I call on the moderators to clean out this thread. Too many of the posts contain speculation and unsubstantiated statements. People are up in arms over "facts" that I have shown to be untrue.
 
#39 ·
Wikipedia articles themselves may not be a good reference, however, Wikipedia articles will often have links to academic references.
 
#41 ·
I felt Thalassa made the point that it's near impossible to obsess over every thing we use in life. Whether you read that one company makes their product without any by products, it doesn't mean the next envelope, pen, package etc is going to have the same conformity. Same reason vegans quickly learn to scan ingredients every time, and not assume what the spectrum of 'natural ingredients' contains. Pretty much why that catagory exists-because it can be changed at any time.
What's far more important is the real impact we have on diminishing the use of by products by causing their source to disappear

soap often has gelatin-I use soap in public bathrooms. Pens may or may not have animal products- I have yet to check
Cats are animals that need the care of humans. On the streets they breed uncontrolled and contract serious diseases-and spread serious diseases. I also buy food for them that contain meat, and while I acknowledge it's an contradiction I also know that by killing off the cats we've made our dependents won't solve the problem of raising and killing animals for the people who don't ever require meat. Vegan cat food is expensive and I would never attempt it without consistent vet care

The real issue is not whether or not this or that extraneous product contains some link to an animal pieced out on dinner plates and makeup and medical supplies, it's educating people to not demand the animal to begin with
 
#42 ·
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top