VeggieBoards banner
41 - 52 of 52 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,961 Posts
I felt Thalassa made the point that it's near impossible to obsess over every thing we use in life. Whether you read that one company makes their product without any by products, it doesn't mean the next envelope, pen, package etc is going to have the same conformity. Same reason vegans quickly learn to scan ingredients every time, and not assume what the spectrum of 'natural ingredients' contains. Pretty much why that catagory exists-because it can be changed at any time.
What's far more important is the real impact we have on diminishing the use of by products by causing their source to disappear

soap often has gelatin-I use soap in public bathrooms. Pens may or may not have animal products- I have yet to check
Cats are animals that need the care of humans. On the streets they breed uncontrolled and contract serious diseases-and spread serious diseases. I also buy food for them that contain meat, and while I acknowledge it's an contradiction I also know that by killing off the cats we've made our dependents won't solve the problem of raising and killing animals for the people who don't ever require meat. Vegan cat food is expensive and I would never attempt it without consistent vet care

The real issue is not whether or not this or that extraneous product contains some link to an animal pieced out on dinner plates and makeup and medical supplies, it's educating people to not demand the animal to begin with
 

·
Vegan since 1991
Joined
·
3,667 Posts

·
Bandit
Joined
·
544 Posts
Provide sources, or refrain from posting this stuff.

Animal glue is used for specialized woodworking applications, yes. However, if you buy a bottle of wood glue at the hardware store, it is not animal glue. The popular Titebond wood glues (with the exception of their "liquid hide" glue) are synthetic - PVA (polyvinyl acetate) and polyurethane: http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.ashx . Animal glues are inferior because they are not inherently waterproof - they are used for antique restoration and for process authenticity.

Gel ink does not contain collagen. Where are you getting this stuff?? The gels are derived from xanthan gum and tragacanth gum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_pen . Xantham gum is made from glucose, sucrose, or lactose. Yes, the lactose option is from dairy (but no collagen!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthan_gum . Tragacanth is made from plant sap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragacanth

If you believe I am incorrect, then post links to your sources.

Stop misinforming people, now.
I'm sorry I'm almost laughing here because you're telling me to stop posting and that I'm misinforming people when your sole references are Wikipedia.
 

·
Vegan since 1991
Joined
·
3,667 Posts
I'm sorry I'm almost laughing here because you're telling me to stop posting and that I'm misinforming people when your sole references are Wikipedia.
Not true at all. Read back through the posts. I've included references from an industrial adhesive publication, the Royal Society of Chemistry, a forensic document examiner, a medical polymer manufacturer, an adhesive manufacturer, a manufacturer of starch by-products, and others.

Please provide a link to support your claim that gel ink contains collagen.

Please provide a link that names which school supplies companies test on animals, as you mention above.

I don't believe you're sorry. Laughing is a form of character attack. Let's stick to facts and references here.

.
 

·
Bandit
Joined
·
544 Posts
I felt Thalassa made the point that it's near impossible to obsess over every thing we use in life. Whether you read that one company makes their product without any by products, it doesn't mean the next envelope, pen, package etc is going to have the same conformity. Same reason vegans quickly learn to scan ingredients every time, and not assume what the spectrum of 'natural ingredients' contains. Pretty much why that catagory exists-because it can be changed at any time.
What's far more important is the real impact we have on diminishing the use of by products by causing their source to disappear

soap often has gelatin-I use soap in public bathrooms. Pens may or may not have animal products- I have yet to check
Cats are animals that need the care of humans. On the streets they breed uncontrolled and contract serious diseases-and spread serious diseases. I also buy food for them that contain meat, and while I acknowledge it's an contradiction I also know that by killing off the cats we've made our dependents won't solve the problem of raising and killing animals for the people who don't ever require meat. Vegan cat food is expensive and I would never attempt it without consistent vet care

The real issue is not whether or not this or that extraneous product contains some link to an animal pieced out on dinner plates and makeup and medical supplies, it's educating people to not demand the animal to begin with
Yes.

You're right of course about some soaps containing gelatin. People even use gelatin to make jelly hand soap at home. I'm also right about the existence of bio-gel ink being derived from collagen, and about some art inks, like India ink, containing gelatin.

This conversation has actually become absurd, because just because many vegan alternatives exist, it does not mean every ink or soap or glue is vegan.

I'm going to leave this conversation because it's become pedantic to the extreme, when literally hundreds or thousands of xyz consumer products exist, some of which contain animal products.
 

·
Bandit
Joined
·
544 Posts
Not true at all. Read back through the posts. I've included references from an industrial adhesive publication, the Royal Society of Chemistry, a forensic document examiner, a medical polymer manufacturer, an adhesive manufacturer, a manufacturer of starch by-products, and others.

Please provide a link to support your claim that gel ink contains collagen.

Please provide a link that names which school supplies companies test on animals, as you mention above.

I don't believe you're sorry. Laughing is a form of character attack. Let's stick to facts and references here.

.
No David you just want to be right. You don't even know about gelatin in soaps, yet you're talking down to Silva like "No." Like you know every soap company because you read Wikipedia. You don't. Go ahead and search gel soap recipes. I'll wait.

Same with ink. It's common knowledge that many drawing inks aren't vegan because of either collagen or shallac. Some companies are kind enough to even list which of their art supplies contain animal products. You're not going to find that on Wikipedia.

Do you have a personal problem with PETA? Because they freely let people know about companies like Bic which test on animals. Scotch brand tape is also tested on animals.

I'm not going to post anything here, because I find your worship of Wikipedia utterly non-sequitur to the details of the conversation. ..Wikipedia won't tell you which companies test on animals or which brands of art or tattoo inks contain collagen or insect derived shellac.

I mean it's almost like you're joking. If you hate misinformation so much, by all means take your keyboard warrior spirit to the alt-right and climate science deniers.
 

·
Vegan since 1991
Joined
·
3,667 Posts
No David you just want to be right. You don't even know about gelatin in soaps, yet you're talking down to Silva like "No." Like you know every soap company because you read Wikipedia. You don't. Go ahead and search gel soap recipes. I'll wait.

Same with ink. It's common knowledge that many drawing inks aren't vegan because of either collagen or shallac. Some companies are kind enough to even list which of their art supplies contain animal products. You're not going to find that on Wikipedia.

Do you have a personal problem with PETA? Because they freely let people know about companies like Bic which test on animals. Scotch brand tape is also tested on animals.

I'm not going to post anything here, because I find your worship of Wikipedia utterly non-sequitur to the details of the conversation. ..Wikipedia won't tell you which companies test on animals or which brands of art or tattoo inks contain collagen or insect derived shellac.

I mean it's almost like you're joking. If you hate misinformation so much, by all means take your keyboard warrior spirit to the alt-right and climate science deniers.
You've posted no links to support your claims. You've provided no valid justification for your refusal to post such links.

I've posted several other references besides Wikipedia. You choose to ignore this. You accuse me of worshiping Wikipedia - a thinly-veiled character attack.

"Common knowledge" is a mixture of facts and false beliefs.

No, I don't really care about winning. I would like to see facts that are well-supported and substantiated. Failing this, I would like to see facts that are partly substantiated.

.
 

·
Bandit
Joined
·
544 Posts
You've posted no links to support your claims. You've provided no valid justification for your refusal to post such links.

I've posted several other references besides Wikipedia. You choose to ignore this. You accuse me of worshiping Wikipedia - a thinly-veiled character attack.

"Common knowledge" is a mixture of facts and false beliefs.

No, I don't really care about winning. I would like to see facts that are well-supported and substantiated. Failing this, I would like to see facts that are partly substantiated.

.
DAVID. ...you called for mods to remove posts you simply didn't like or agree with and told people to stop posting, not because of hostility or personal attacks, but because you can't apparently find the information for the ingredients of hundreds of companies through Wikipedia.

I don't think you realize how obnoxious your posts have been. Not just towards me, but towards Silva too. Gelatin is a key component in fashionable jelly soaps and bath gels, but you were just like "no Wikipedia says no!"

I would post tons of links if your posts had been remotely respectful, from the get go, or if you were able to post any other source than Wikipedia after self righteously instructing others to do research.

You're the one who isn't doing research, ironically, it's you that's spreading misinformation. ..you're trying to reassure the OP that no ball point pens or inks are non-vegan, but you can't possibly do that, since some supply companies animal test and yes there's probably some tape in his house or a piece of furniture that either contains an animal product, or comes from a company that animal tests.

For you to be so disingenuously obtuse about it while brow beating others for making "unsubstantiated claims" is comical.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #49 ·
No need for them to check! As I mentioned in my earlier post (substantiated by a link to an industrial adhesive publication), cardboard box adhesives are made from synthetic polymers.

Envelope glue is also vegan. Envelope glue is made from synthetic materials, or from natural rubber (comes from plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber), or from vinyl dextrin (vinyl is a synthetic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_group, dextrin is a natural material made from starch: https://www.cargill.com/bioindustrial/industrial-dextrins). See this webpage from HB Fuller, a large manufacturer of industrial adhesives: http://www.hbfuller.com/north-ameri...verting/envelope?product=yes&sectionid=757664

We are making a huge mistake on this thread. People are discussing animal-based adhesives as if they were commonly used the 21st century. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, animal-based adhesives are only used for gluing together low-quality publications, like telephone books and junk mail.

We need to stop making unsubstantiated claims. It just serves to increase people's ignorance. Please do your research before posting. And, by the way, "research" doesn't mean reading blogs and forums.
.
"Dear [me],
Thank you for your email and for taking the time to get in touch.

There are instances of non-vegan inks, adhesives and solvents, all of which are used in packaging. The best thing to do is to contact the manufacturer directly and ask them what type of inks and adhesives they use in their packaging"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Are you from the US? Because I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't seem to understand supply and demand: that's why humans not consuming "big" items like meat, milk, cheese or leather reduces demand for those products and reduces factory farming, and does far more to alleviate the problem than worrying about ink, or envelope glue, or economy brands of pet food.

Yes, most people feed pets by products, only the very wealthy tend to feed pets "human grade" animal products. Cats can digest certain things we can't without getting sick, because they're carnivores, and we aren't. Those by products will exist as long as other people are eating meat, that's what I'm talking about.

It's very privileged to presume every vegan can afford to special order vegan envelopes or vegan cat food (or even that all vegans would agree with feeding a carnivorous animal companion vegan food) ...yes we can all do our part. The thing is, wealthy and upper middle class vegans, and long-term middle class vegans, have more time and resources to actually find things like vegan ink.

As I said in my first post, if you can find or use vegan ink, good for you, but it's not going to make the same impact on supply and demand or animal cruelty as not consuming meat and dairy or stopping purchasing *new* leather or wool. Also, some people aren't privileged enough to have everything 100% vegan, especially new vegans, so they do their best and shouldn't be shamed if they can't afford non-mainstream envelopes or pens.

I also don't think vegans should be shamed for caring for companion animals, who are sometimes the first inspiration or "aha" link for new vegetarians or vegans, though I respect the rights of some vegans to oppose it.
Don't pretend I ever intimated that someone cutting out non-vegan packaging from their lives would amount to the same reduction in the demand for animal exploitation as cutting out meat, please.

And 'those by products' might exist in smaller numbers if less people bought them as that could be the difference between turning a profit on a cow and making the exploitation of that individual worthwhile or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
In trying to lead a healthy lifestyle and protect the environment, I don't think we can somehow change the choice of companies with what material they package their products. Or can we? However, as buyers or entrepreneurs, we can decide what kind of products we choose with what kind of packaging. I am glad that some companies are run according to the principle of sustainability. For example, belmark.com makes recycled cardboard packaging. That makes me very happy. I have used their services in the past.
 
41 - 52 of 52 Posts
Top