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Bandit
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Agreed. It doesn't substantially benefit the animals to worry about 0.1% animal material in plastics, for instance. It's much better to focus on getting people to eat less (100% animal material) meat. If a person eats one fewer 100 gram hamburger, the resulting decreased consumption of animal material is many thousands of times greater than that resulting from not buying a plastic cup.
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While I agree with your overall sentiment about < 1% animal products in any particular item we buy or continue to consume and abhor waste, plastics could be argued to be harmful to animals because they're destructive to wildlife. I personally don't see veganism as merely being about directly exploited farm animals but also about the untold numbers of species being driven from their homes or to endangerment or extinction by human selfishness and stupidity, and plastics are way up there...so in purchasing NEW items, it's best to weigh out whether plastics are made from petroleum or a more sustainable material like hemp, if your plastic is being recycled and if you are looking for alternatives to plastic like glass, cloth bags, and metal containers. Obviously old plastics don't pose a real moral problem, even symbolically the way old leather or old fur would, but new plastics do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I'm sure other people in this thread are already addressing this, and from what I've seen they have, but I'll add my two cents.

We live in a highly complex, interconnected world, both naturally or ecologically, and via business, agriculture, etc. SO, when you actually abstain from the most harmful things (eating meat, eggs or dairy, and avoiding buying new wool, leather or fur) you actually are affecting supply and demand in a substantial way. The dairy industry is currently so hard hit in the US, they're mad at vegans for using the word "milk" to describe soy and nut or seed milks. This is awesome.

Also, if you have the time, money and resources, sure, please buy ink or shoes or sugar or wine that doesn't use negligible amounts of extraneous animal products (like bone char, fish bladders, or insect dyes) ...HOWEVER, just know, as long as people eat meat and fish and blah blah blah, there's going to be bone char and fish bladders used in refining. It's going to exist anyway, and again, please, if you are privileged enough or have been vegan long enough to use vegan ink, your efforts ARE worth it, because companies like Guinness do sometimes change.

I'm all for only buying 100 percent vegan products if you can, but this reminds me of pet food arguments. ..vegan cat food is expensive and hard to find, and pet food is made of cast off animal parts from human food anyway, so to deny carnivore animal companions meat or dairy based foods, which are merely a cast off from a greedy capitalist human society, seems like literally denying the dog scraps from under the table for no apparent reason. Maybe I'll change my mind some day, but being an environmentalist as well as a vegan, I doubt my attitude towards first world waste will change any time soon.
Of course people still make bone char and isinglass filters even though I completely avoid them (which is not expensive to do and it is not difficult). It is the same for meat and leather. All I can do is my part not to demand it, thereby also making the alternative to the animal product increasingly more attractive for a company to sell - and therefore a manufacturer to use - instead, like how Guinness as you say have abandoned isinglass filtration, and supermarkets are selling more plant-based milk, as more and more units of the alternative are more profitable to sell in place of the animal-derived units.

I'll need you to elaborate about cats. Surely you aren't saying that humans should continue to eat meat so that cats can eat the scraps, so that you don't have to pay for vegan food for your cat? I am sure I have things wrong, as I can't imagine a vegan who would say that, assuming you are one?
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
While I couldn't find anything relating to large scale slaughterhouses profits from rendering, I found this on smaller slaughterhouses which costs them to have their waste taken by rendering plants, and alludes to larger scale as more or less breaking even

It's near impossible to avoid everything that comes from the meat industry, and in some cases there are no other options.
The reality is that these by products would not be created without the slaughterhouse for meat. Take away the demand for meat and you take away the need to dispose of the waste.
Granted, there are items that would need to be reformulated, but as of now, there is no real need to recreate them, as there is such vast amounts of animal by products.

http://www.agmrc.org/media/cms/packinghousebyproducts_2DDB7A96C5100.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sue-cross/horse-meat-slaugtherhorse-veganism_b_2684502.html
Very graphic BTW

Companies have been forced to find ways to dispose of the excess.

Even beyond nit picking every bit, you have to realize you have your life to live. Ask yourself are you more productive talking about the joys of a vegan life, or being consumed by the stress over every thing you come in contact with?
I've had to take breaks every now and then from absolute veganism out of becoming too OCD to cope.
What is worth fighting for? The billions of animals killed needlessly every day for peoples dinner. Lose the slaughterhouse, you lose the rendering plants
I vaunt the joys in my life and I consider whether I could and should be doing more to be a better vegan.

And can I not stop additional animals being slaughtered by not purchasing things made/using by products while I am waiting for the rest of the world to stop eating meat? I apologise if this is conclusively covered in either of your articles that I have not fully read yet.
 

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I vaunt the joys in my life and I consider whether I could and should be doing more to be a better vegan.

And can I not stop additional animals being slaughtered by not purchasing things made/using by products while I am waiting for the rest of the world to stop eating meat? I apologise if this is conclusively covered in either of your articles that I have not fully read yet.
I can't help but wonder how you come across in real life.
There are things from rendering plants that are easy to avoid, like gelatin, isinglass, enzymes..
If I were in a business where I needed to use adhesives I would certainly call around, do my research, but as far as every day life-like using an envelope to mail a bill--no

Many people avoid using packaging, are sure to only purchase ethical products like cotton, coffee, chocolate, but not every bit .
It's like what's in the unit you're typing on now?
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
I can't help but wonder how you come across in real life.
There are things from rendering plants that are easy to avoid, like gelatin, isinglass, enzymes..
If I were in a business where I needed to use adhesives I would certainly call around, do my research, but as far as every day life-like using an envelope to mail a bill--no
I expect to come across as someone who doesn't put a high value on how they come across to strangers. I'd rather do the things I think I should.

Many people avoid using packaging, are sure to only purchase ethical products like cotton, coffee, chocolate, but not every bit .
It's like what's in the unit you're typing on now?
I hadn't given it any thought being it's not my computer, but I have wondered what is in the one I had gifted to me, not that I asked for it. Anyway, I do believe a communications device is a power for great good and that that outweighs whatever may be in one. A vegan one is always preferable however.
 

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Might the ink in the print on packaging and labels, the glue used to keep cardboard boxes closed, and the adhesive on envelopes, for starters, be non-vegan?
The Jain religion/culture of India is one of the oldest and most determinedly non-violent religions in the world. The Jains have been addressing questions similar to yours for at least 5,000 years.

All practicing Jains are vegetarian, and Jain monks and nuns make exceptional efforts to avoid the slightest violence towards even the tiniest animals. Below is a photo of Jain monks, with covers over their mouths (to avoid accidentally swallowing small insects) and with soft whisk brooms (used to gently sweep the path in front of themselves as they walk, so as to avoid stepping on insects).

 
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Of course people still make bone char and isinglass filters even though I completely avoid them (which is not expensive to do and it is not difficult). It is the same for meat and leather. All I can do is my part not to demand it, thereby also making the alternative to the animal product increasingly more attractive for a company to sell - and therefore a manufacturer to use - instead, like how Guinness as you say have abandoned isinglass filtration, and supermarkets are selling more plant-based milk, as more and more units of the alternative are more profitable to sell in place of the animal-derived units.

I'll need you to elaborate about cats. Surely you aren't saying that humans should continue to eat meat so that cats can eat the scraps, so that you don't have to pay for vegan food for your cat? I am sure I have things wrong, as I can't imagine a vegan who would say that, assuming you are one?
No I'm saying it already exists and because it's cast off and scraps, not buying Fancy Feast or Whiskas isn't going to end factory farming. It's nice that vegan cat food with taurine exists, but it's really expensive and difficult to find, and some people have a problem with making carnivores eat vegan food, anyway, since veganism is a human omnivores choice, we aren't carnivores nor are we pets. But even if you think pet food is not vegan (some vegans won't keep companion animals) the fact remains that feeding cats or dogs pet food isn't supporting the spread of factory farms, it's essentially utilizing parts like bone meal, internal organs etc that are viewed as waste. That "waste" isn't going to stop existing because you dont feed your dog Alpo. If more people are vegetarian or vegan, this of course will shift.
 

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I do believe a communications device is a power for great good and that that outweighs whatever may be in one. A vegan one is always preferable however.
Inks and envelope glue are utilized for communication; they are a power for the greater good. Thus, wouldn't letters and packaging outweigh whatever may be in the inks and envelope glue?
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Inks and envelope glue are utilized for communication; they are a power for the greater good. Thus, wouldn't letters and packaging outweigh whatever may be in the inks and envelope glue?
It depends what is contained within the ink and glue and what they are being used for. I am trying to do good on my laptop every day. What proportion of enveloped material and printed material do you think is reducing more harm than it creates?
 

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No I'm saying it already exists and because it's cast off and scraps, not buying Fancy Feast or Whiskas isn't going to end factory farming. .
Neither is you not eating meat.

It's nice that vegan cat food with taurine exists, but it's really expensive and difficult to find, and some people have a problem with making carnivores eat vegan food, anyway, since veganism is a human omnivores choice, we aren't carnivores nor are we pets. But even if you think pet food is not vegan (some vegans won't keep companion animals) the fact remains that feeding cats or dogs pet food isn't supporting the spread of factory farms, it's essentially utilizing parts like bone meal, internal organs etc that are viewed as waste. .
It's not waste if it's making them money, it's just a by-product. And forgive me if I'm wrong but I think there's more to pet food than things that would not be eaten if it did not go to the cat.

That "waste" isn't going to stop existing because you dont feed your dog Alpo. If more people are vegetarian or vegan, this of course will shift.
Again slaughtered animals won't stop existing just because you don't eat whatever. But you still do your part. If you're not buying the product (burgers, leather, organs, animal glue, maybe ink, whatever) you're taking away money for the slaughtered animal making it less profitable to rear the animal for slaughter and deincentivising them to do it.
 

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The Vegan Society have sent me an email to say they don't check to see if the packaging of the products bearing their label are non vegan
No need for them to check! As I mentioned in my earlier post (substantiated by a link to an industrial adhesive publication), cardboard box adhesives are made from synthetic polymers.

Envelope glue is also vegan. Envelope glue is made from synthetic materials, or from natural rubber (comes from plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber), or from vinyl dextrin (vinyl is a synthetic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_group, dextrin is a natural material made from starch: https://www.cargill.com/bioindustrial/industrial-dextrins). See this webpage from HB Fuller, a large manufacturer of industrial adhesives: http://www.hbfuller.com/north-ameri...verting/envelope?product=yes&sectionid=757664

We are making a huge mistake on this thread. People are discussing animal-based adhesives as if they were commonly used the 21st century. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, animal-based adhesives are only used for gluing together low-quality publications, like telephone books and junk mail.

We need to stop making unsubstantiated claims. It just serves to increase people's ignorance. Please do your research before posting. And, by the way, "research" doesn't mean reading blogs and forums.
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I call on the moderators to clean out this thread. Too many of the posts contain speculation and unsubstantiated statements. People are up in arms over "facts" that I have shown to be untrue.
 

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Neither is you not eating meat.

It's not waste if it's making them money, it's just a by-product. And forgive me if I'm wrong but I think there's more to pet food than things that would not be eaten if it did not go to the cat.

Again slaughtered animals won't stop existing just because you don't eat whatever. But you still do your part. If you're not buying the product (burgers, leather, organs, animal glue, maybe ink, whatever) you're taking away money for the slaughtered animal making it less profitable to rear the animal for slaughter and deincentivising them to do it.
Are you from the US? Because I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't seem to understand supply and demand: that's why humans not consuming "big" items like meat, milk, cheese or leather reduces demand for those products and reduces factory farming, and does far more to alleviate the problem than worrying about ink, or envelope glue, or economy brands of pet food.

Yes, most people feed pets by products, only the very wealthy tend to feed pets "human grade" animal products. Cats can digest certain things we can't without getting sick, because they're carnivores, and we aren't. Those by products will exist as long as other people are eating meat, that's what I'm talking about.

It's very privileged to presume every vegan can afford to special order vegan envelopes or vegan cat food (or even that all vegans would agree with feeding a carnivorous animal companion vegan food) ...yes we can all do our part. The thing is, wealthy and upper middle class vegans, and long-term middle class vegans, have more time and resources to actually find things like vegan ink.

As I said in my first post, if you can find or use vegan ink, good for you, but it's not going to make the same impact on supply and demand or animal cruelty as not consuming meat and dairy or stopping purchasing *new* leather or wool. Also, some people aren't privileged enough to have everything 100% vegan, especially new vegans, so they do their best and shouldn't be shamed if they can't afford non-mainstream envelopes or pens.

I also don't think vegans should be shamed for caring for companion animals, who are sometimes the first inspiration or "aha" link for new vegetarians or vegans, though I respect the rights of some vegans to oppose it.
 

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No need for them to check! As I mentioned in my earlier post (substantiated by a link to an industrial adhesive publication), cardboard box adhesives are made from synthetic polymers.

Envelope glue is also vegan. Envelope glue is made from synthetic materials, or from natural rubber (comes from plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber), or from vinyl dextrin (vinyl is a synthetic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_group, dextrin is a natural material made from starch: https://www.cargill.com/bioindustrial/industrial-dextrins). See this webpage from HB Fuller, a large manufacturer of industrial adhesives: http://www.hbfuller.com/north-ameri...verting/envelope?product=yes&sectionid=757664

We are making a huge mistake on this thread. People are discussing animal-based adhesives as if they were commonly used the 21st century. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, animal-based adhesives are only used for gluing together low-quality publications, like telephone books and junk mail.

We need to stop making unsubstantiated claims. It just serves to increase people's ignorance. Please do your research before posting. And, by the way, "research" doesn't mean reading blogs and forums.
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If everyone has to do research before posting on this forum, not including blogs or forums, then there will be maybe three people left here. I think that's totally unrealistic and the forum is already slow.

I mean I respect your point, that people sometimes spread misinformation or believe half truths, I get what you're saying, but asking people to research like posting on a internet forum like it's an academic dissertation or like they're hosting a YouTube channel is honestly a little silly.
 

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If everyone has to do research before posting on this forum, not including blogs or forums, then there will be maybe three people left here. I think that's totally unrealistic and the forum is already slow.

I mean I respect your point, that people sometimes spread misinformation or believe half truths, I get what you're saying, but asking people to research like posting on a internet forum like it's an academic dissertation or like they're hosting a YouTube channel is honestly a little silly.
I'm really not trying to be unrealistic. I'm hoping that we can keep misinformation out of this forum, that's all.

For example: In your post above, you talk about "non-vegan ink" as if it actually exists. Well, it doesn't exist in ballpoint pens or inkjet cartridges.

Ballpoint pen ink is made from phenoxyethanol (a synthetically-produced solvent) and various triarylmethane dyes (synthetically-produced dyes). Here is an exhaustive chemical analysis of Bic pen ink: https://issuu.com/fs_qde/docs/abcmbpi . Here is the Wikipedia page of phenoxyethanol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenoxyethanol . Here is the Wikipedia page for triarylmethane dyes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triarylmethane_dye . Both materials are synthesized from petroleum and inorganic chemicals.

Here is an article about the chemistry inkjet cartridge ink: https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/ink-chemistry/1013163.article . Inkjet cartridge ink can contain eosin (a synthetic red dye): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eosin_Y , triphenylmethane (a synthetic blue dye): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triphenylmethane , inorganic pigments, and carbon black (made from petroleum): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_black . No animal products.

That's why I think we should insist on references and links.
 

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I'm really not trying to be unrealistic. I'm hoping that we can keep misinformation out of this forum, that's all.

For example: In your post above, you talk about "non-vegan ink" as if it actually exists. Well, it doesn't exist in ballpoint pens or inkjet cartridges.

Ballpoint pen ink is made from phenoxyethanol (a synthetically-produced solvent) and various triarylmethane dyes (synthetically-produced dyes). Here is an exhaustive chemical analysis of Bic pen ink: https://issuu.com/fs_qde/docs/abcmbpi . Here is the Wikipedia page of phenoxyethanol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenoxyethanol . Here is the Wikipedia page for triarylmethane dyes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triarylmethane_dye . Both materials are synthesized from petroleum and inorganic chemicals.

Here is an article about the chemistry inkjet cartridge ink: https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/ink-chemistry/1013163.article . Inkjet cartridge ink can contain eosin (a synthetic red dye): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eosin_Y , triphenylmethane (a synthetic blue dye): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triphenylmethane , inorganic pigments, and carbon black (made from petroleum): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_black . No animal products.

That's why I think we should insist on references and links.
Actually, gel ink contains collagen, tattoo ink can contain animal products, and there are office supply and school supply companies who still test on animals.

Glue used in woodwork, including furniture, even if you don't play the violin or collect antiques, is often animal based.

I also kind of balk at you insisting that we do wholesome research, then posting Wikipedia articles as references, not that Wikipedia isn't correct, but they aren't academic peer reviewed journals. I do think Wikipedia has a high level of reliability because of the sheer number of writers, but it's not academically standardized by people who hold specific degrees either.

I think the point that Silva and I were trying to make is about the real impact of supply and demand, vs. personal purity. Factory farming exists because of increased demand for animal products and putting Crayola out of business isn't going to make as much of an impact as challenging food and clothing companies. I do advocate the use of vegan products whenever possible, but it's all about least harm possible within a framework of ethical reasoning.
 
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Wikipedia articles themselves may not be a good reference, however, Wikipedia articles will often have links to academic references.
 

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Actually, gel ink contains collagen, tattoo ink can contain animal products, and there are office supply and school supply companies who still test on animals.

Glue used in woodwork, including furniture, even if you don't play the violin or collect antiques, is often animal based.

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Provide sources, or refrain from posting this stuff.

Animal glue is used for specialized woodworking applications, yes. However, if you buy a bottle of wood glue at the hardware store, it is not animal glue. The popular Titebond wood glues (with the exception of their "liquid hide" glue) are synthetic - PVA (polyvinyl acetate) and polyurethane: http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.ashx . Animal glues are inferior because they are not inherently waterproof - they are used for antique restoration and for process authenticity.

Gel ink does not contain collagen. Where are you getting this stuff?? The gels are derived from xanthan gum and tragacanth gum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_pen . Xantham gum is made from glucose, sucrose, or lactose. Yes, the lactose option is from dairy (but no collagen!): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthan_gum . Tragacanth is made from plant sap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragacanth

If you believe I am incorrect, then post links to your sources.

Stop misinforming people, now.
 
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