VeggieBoards banner
1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Look ma! No hooves!
Joined
·
68 Posts
There are animal products hidden in a lot of products, and until primary animal agriculture is a thing of the past, the side-products of animal use will find their way in to these products. This is due to by-products from a large industry tend to be cheap. Striving to find packaging and other items that do no not include any potential animal products is admirable, and will eventually become a greater focus in main stream veganism in the future, but for now the fight against the primary use of animals is the focus as it is the primary driver for animal agriculture.

IE. The only reason why glues, inks, solder flux etc have animal by-products in them is because there is a massive animal agriculture industry caused by demand for primary products (meat, eggs, dairy, etc).

If you can find packaging that does not involve animal by-products, then great! And share that info with us here! By try not to let that interfere with the big fight, as IMHO this may end up creating a negative result (EG other people seeing veganism as "too hard" and making it less accessible to them)

The "possible and practicable" part of the definition is there for this very reason. If it becomes about purity, then it will be stuck in the water and not change the world for the better, for both humans and non human animals.

For reference, veganism is:
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thalassa and Tom

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Did you contact the company in question and ask?
Lots of companies produce packaging

There are animal products hidden in a lot of products, and until primary animal agriculture is a thing of the past, the side-products of animal use will find their way in to these products. This is due to by-products from a large industry tend to be cheap. Striving to find packaging and other items that do no not include any potential animal products is admirable, and will eventually become a greater focus in main stream veganism in the future, but for now the fight against the primary use of animals is the focus as it is the primary driver for animal agriculture.

IE. The only reason why glues, inks, solder flux etc have animal by-products in them is because there is a massive animal agriculture industry caused by demand for primary products (meat, eggs, dairy, etc).

If you can find packaging that does not involve animal by-products, then great! And share that info with us here! By try not to let that interfere with the big fight, as IMHO this may end up creating a negative result (EG other people seeing veganism as "too hard" and making it less accessible to them)

The "possible and practicable" part of the definition is there for this very reason. If it becomes about purity, then it will be stuck in the water and not change the world for the better, for both humans and non human animals.

For reference, veganism is:
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude-as far as is possible and practicable-all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
Do you have sources detailing what animal products, or products produced using animal products, can be found in packaging?
 

·
Vegan since 1991
Joined
·
3,667 Posts
The vast majority of modern adhesives are synthetic. Modern synthetic adhesives, such as epoxy, cyanoacrylate, silicone, polyurethane, and acrylic, are far superior to early adhesives made with animal collagen, dairy casein, plant starches, and tree sap. Synthetic adhesives are made by chemically-reacting base materials derived from petroleum and natural gas - example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane

It is commonly believed that "white glue" (such as Elmer's glue) is made from animal material. The cartoon-drawing of a cow on the Elmer's glue bottle is perceived as proof of this. However, it's not true. Common white glue is polyvinyl acetate ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate ), a synthetic adhesive made by the polymerization of vinyl acetate, a monomer made from ethylene (derived from natural gas) and acetic acid (derived from petroleum-synthesized methanol, or from fermentation of plant sugars).

I can address your specific questions about cardboard box glue. Carton-sealing adhesives (cardboard box glue) are made from copolymer, homopolymer or EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate): https://www.glueit.com/category/applications/packaging/case-carton/ . Copolymer is a combination of different monomers, all of which are synthetically-produced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copolymer . Homopolymers are similar to copolymers, but they contain only one type of (synthetic) monomer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer#Monomers_and_repeat_units . EVA (ethylene vinyl acetate) is a specific type of copolymer, made from ethylene and vinyl acetate (both synthetics): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene-vinyl_acetate.

Animal-content adhesives still have limited use in certain low-quality applications, such as binding telephone books and junk mail. Regular books, however, are glued together with synthetic adhesives: http://www.adhesivesmag.com/articles/87133-bookbinding-adhesives . Telephone books, of course, have largely been made obsolete by the internet. If you would like to avoid receiving junk mail, you can contact the senders of junk mail materials.

Very small amounts of animal material are used in the processing of some plastics. For example, calcium stearate (made with stearic acid, which has historically been made from beef tallow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid) can be added to plastics as an acid neutralizer, processing lubricant, and release agent. The amount of added animal material is tiny; typically less than 1000 ppm, or 0.1%, of stearate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_stearate . Even this is being phased out for certain products, due to concerns over bovine spongiform encephalopathy ("mad cow disease"): https://www.nordsonmedical.com/newsletter/animal-free.htm .

Lots more information is available on this, although the topic is mostly academic, since modern adhesives (including hardware store glues) are all synthetic.

Glad to see that you are interested in this topic. As you can see, the answers to your questions can be found in industrial adhesive and polymer websites, and on Wikipedia.

If you are interested in helping to develop alternatives to other animal products, you might pursue a career in chemistry, biology, or food science.
.
.
 

·
Vegan since 1991
Joined
·
3,667 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Here you go--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_glue

What is your agenda anyway? Most people ask about the glue used in shoes and things they can control.
More people stop eating animals, less parts to dispose of in such ways
I think my 'agenda' is I'm worried about the possibility that I and others may be unknowingly incentivising the suffering and slaughter of animals by our choice in purchases
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Lots of companies produce packaging
If you are interested in getting information from a packaging product company, you can contact them through their websites.
.
I already contacted one company - 'Allisnce ltd' - to ask if their disposable cups were vegan, to which they responded that they don't sell anything vegan but they do do 'green properties'. To me that sounds like they did not bother checking to find out what was in the product I enquired about - in case it was 'accidentally vegan' - they just checked if they had a vegan product line.
 

·
Vegan since 1991
Joined
·
3,667 Posts
I already contacted one company - 'Allisnce ltd' - to ask if their disposable cups were vegan, to which they responded that they don't sell anything vegan but they do do 'green properties'. To me that sounds like they did not bother checking to find out what was in the product I enquired about - in case it was 'accidentally vegan' - they just checked if they had a vegan product line.
I disappointed to hear that Allisnce Ltd. wouldn't supply you with further information. I'm guessing that they were unwilling to risk legal exposure, since (as I mentioned in my post above), some plastics are processed with very tiny percentages of animal-content material (making them non-vegan in the minds of some people).

I personally consider plastics to be vegan, even if they contain 0.1% stearate as a processing ingredient. Veganism is a lifestyle that minimizes violence - it's not possible to eliminate violence 100.00%
.
.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,961 Posts
I think my 'agenda' is I'm worried about the possibility that I and others may be unknowingly incentivising the suffering and slaughter of animals by our choice in purchases
You're using the internet. Of course we all are.
I simply feel it's time better spent advocating against more direct exploitation of animals. The by products won't exist without so many slaughterhouses
I would of course support any company that manufactured products without by products, but I can't obsess about everything, it isn't helpful to me or the cause
 

·
Vegan since 1991
Joined
·
3,667 Posts
You're using the internet. Of course we all are.
I simply feel it's time better spent advocating against more direct exploitation of animals. The by products won't exist without so many slaughterhouses
I would of course support any company that manufactured products without by products, but I can't obsess about everything, it isn't helpful to me or the cause
Agreed. It doesn't substantially benefit the animals to worry about 0.1% animal material in plastics, for instance. It's much better to focus on getting people to eat less (100% animal material) meat. If a person eats one fewer 100 gram hamburger, the resulting decreased consumption of animal material is many thousands of times greater than that resulting from not buying a plastic cup.
.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,961 Posts
Yes. I think it's far more beneficial to decrease all consumption in general rather than simply identifying the ones produced by slaughterhouse products. Buying things that are ethically grown and sustainably produced is more productive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You're using the internet. Of course we all are.
I simply feel it's time better spent advocating against more direct exploitation of animals. The by products won't exist without so many slaughterhouses
I would of course support any company that manufactured products without by products, but I can't obsess about everything, it isn't helpful to me or the cause
Would there not be so many animals slaughtered if people wouldn't buy the by-products? If the demand for these by-products went down?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Agreed. It doesn't substantially benefit the animals to worry about 0.1% animal material in plastics, for instance. It's much better to focus on getting people to eat less (100% animal material) meat. If a person eats one fewer 100 gram hamburger, the resulting decreased consumption of animal material is many thousands of times greater than that resulting from not buying a plastic cup.
.
Do you consume with drink filtered with animal products? Sugar produced using bone char? Where do you draw the line of not substantially harmful?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,961 Posts
Would there not be so many animals slaughtered if people wouldn't buy the by-products? If the demand for these by-products went down?
Animals aren't slaughtered for by products. Animals are slaughtered for direct uses--meat, leather, dairy cows and hens that are beyond productivity. If the remnents weren't used they would substantially increase the size of landfills. While there is some profit in selling them off it doesn't increase the source.
Only lessening consumers demand for the cause-meat- will effect the amount of by waste.

I certainly avoid gelatin, and while i',m not so strict on knowing the source of every packaged products sugar, I buy beet sugar for my own baking. I don't obsess about everything that isn't going to make any more impact than stress my own sanity
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
498 Posts
With respect to the thread, which seems like it's going down the path of many others, we should seek to define vegan and the scope of your question. I don't want to put words in others mouths, so this is how I see veganism (note that I am not a vegan, rather vegetarian):

Veganism is a way of life that attempts to reduce and exclude, as far as possible, the exploitation and cruelty of animals for human use.

I've read this definition somewhere, so it's not mine. I'm paraphrasing from someone else.

Thus, it recognizes that living a vegan lifestyle is a way of life that seeks to exclude animals where possible. Sometimes it's not possible. Most of the time it is. We just have to do our best and make ourselves aware of our impact. Once we are aware, we can make every attempt, within our means, to reduce it.

I disappointed to hear that Allisnce Ltd. wouldn't supply you with further information. I'm guessing that they were unwilling to risk legal exposure, since (as I mentioned in my post above), some plastics are processed with very tiny percentages of animal-content material (making them non-vegan in the minds of some people).

I personally consider plastics to be vegan, even if they contain 0.1% stearate as a processing ingredient. Veganism is a lifestyle that minimizes violence - it's not possible to eliminate violence 100.00%
.
.
I'm not surprised to hear that a company that doesn't specialize in food or other "typical animal line" products (i.e., clothing) doesn't have the information readily available to provide to the public. If that information isn't readily available, there is no way they would speculate. I don't blame them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Would there not be so many animals slaughtered if people wouldn't buy the by-products? If the demand for these by-products went down?
Animals aren't slaughtered for by products. Animals are slaughtered for direct uses--meat, leather, dairy cows and hens that are beyond productivity. If the remnents weren't used they would substantially increase the size of landfills. While there is some profit in selling them off it doesn't increase the source.
Only lessening consumers demand for the cause-meat- will effect the amount of by waste.

I certainly avoid gelatin, and while i',m not so strict on knowing the source of every packaged products sugar, I buy beet sugar for my own baking. I don't obsess about everything that isn't going to make any more impact than stress my own sanity
I have trouble understanding how something that contributes to the profit of slaughtering an animal does not contribute in the reasoning behind the decision to do it. I hope I am missing something because I haven't had a coffee at my local cafe in a while now. I'm sure I used to be their best customer.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,961 Posts
While I couldn't find anything relating to large scale slaughterhouses profits from rendering, I found this on smaller slaughterhouses which costs them to have their waste taken by rendering plants, and alludes to larger scale as more or less breaking even

It's near impossible to avoid everything that comes from the meat industry, and in some cases there are no other options.
The reality is that these by products would not be created without the slaughterhouse for meat. Take away the demand for meat and you take away the need to dispose of the waste.
Granted, there are items that would need to be reformulated, but as of now, there is no real need to recreate them, as there is such vast amounts of animal by products.

http://www.agmrc.org/media/cms/packinghousebyproducts_2DDB7A96C5100.pdf

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sue-cross/horse-meat-slaugtherhorse-veganism_b_2684502.html
Very graphic BTW

Companies have been forced to find ways to dispose of the excess.

Even beyond nit picking every bit, you have to realize you have your life to live. Ask yourself are you more productive talking about the joys of a vegan life, or being consumed by the stress over every thing you come in contact with?
I've had to take breaks every now and then from absolute veganism out of becoming too OCD to cope.
What is worth fighting for? The billions of animals killed needlessly every day for peoples dinner. Lose the slaughterhouse, you lose the rendering plants
 

·
Bandit
Joined
·
544 Posts
I'm sure other people in this thread are already addressing this, and from what I've seen they have, but I'll add my two cents.

We live in a highly complex, interconnected world, both naturally or ecologically, and via business, agriculture, etc. SO, when you actually abstain from the most harmful things (eating meat, eggs or dairy, and avoiding buying new wool, leather or fur) you actually are affecting supply and demand in a substantial way. The dairy industry is currently so hard hit in the US, they're mad at vegans for using the word "milk" to describe soy and nut or seed milks. This is awesome.

Also, if you have the time, money and resources, sure, please buy ink or shoes or sugar or wine that doesn't use negligible amounts of extraneous animal products (like bone char, fish bladders, or insect dyes) ...HOWEVER, just know, as long as people eat meat and fish and blah blah blah, there's going to be bone char and fish bladders used in refining. It's going to exist anyway, and again, please, if you are privileged enough or have been vegan long enough to use vegan ink, your efforts ARE worth it, because companies like Guinness do sometimes change.

I'm all for only buying 100 percent vegan products if you can, but this reminds me of pet food arguments. ..vegan cat food is expensive and hard to find, and pet food is made of cast off animal parts from human food anyway, so to deny carnivore animal companions meat or dairy based foods, which are merely a cast off from a greedy capitalist human society, seems like literally denying the dog scraps from under the table for no apparent reason. Maybe I'll change my mind some day, but being an environmentalist as well as a vegan, I doubt my attitude towards first world waste will change any time soon.
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top