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Discussion Starter #1
This may have been asked before on here but bear with me I am new here.<br><br><br><br>
I am presently on the vegetarian version of the South Beach diet. I like it, but I would also like to check out diet plans that are totally vegetarian if not vegan.<br><br><br><br>
Has anyone on here tried either the Ornish or McDougall plans and lost weight?<br><br><br><br>
If so I would like to hear from you or at least hear the pros and cons of those diets.<br><br><br><br>
Thanks! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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No, but you would loose weight on either diet as they are extreme low fat (actually they are low fat and other low fat diets shouldn't be called so). See that you get a good portion of omega-3 fatty acids and check for fatty soluble vitamins, if you try any of these diets.
 

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No, but I'd go with Ornish over McDougall simply because I have strong disliking for the person of John McDougall. HTH
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kpickell</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
No, but I'd go with Ornish over McDougall simply because I have strong disliking for the person of John McDougall. HTH</div>
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why?
 

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Technically speaking, Ornish is not veg*n (he recommends fish oil for Omega's).<br><br><br><br>
KPickell, what is your issue with Dr. McDougall?<br><br><br><br>
I would go with McDougall, but Ornish has a good low-fat vegetarian cook-book (There are both Ovo-Lacto and Vegan recipes, if I remember correctly).
 

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I don't want to get into it... suffice it to say he gets filthy, filthy rich off of misleading people. Zero compassion for animals. He's a tv evangelist in vegetarian clothing. in my opinion.<br><br><br><br>
Now, I'll get off my soapbox and let you get back to your thread.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kpickell</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't want to get into it... suffice it to say he gets filthy, filthy rich off of misleading people. Zero compassion for animals. He's a tv evangelist in vegetarian clothing.<br><br><br><br>
Now, I'll get off my soapbox and let you get back to your thread.</div>
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oh, okay. I am not really familiar with either person, so I was just curious. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"><br><br><br><br>
anyhoo, my personal opinion is that most people who write "diet" books are doing it for the $$ and not some great love of humanity. everybodys got an agenda.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/brood.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":brood:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Has anyone on here tried either the Ornish or McDougall plans and lost weight?</div>
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I did the McDougall plan to a T for 4 months. (few years ago) Yes, the weight fell off fast. There is no way in heck I can go without olive oil and the lack of fat. lol That is why I did not last and it was strict and boring. But, I do like him though for some points he makes.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kpickell</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I don't want to get into it... suffice it to say he gets filthy, filthy rich off of misleading people. Zero compassion for animals. He's a tv evangelist in vegetarian clothing. in my opinion.<br><br><br><br>
Now, I'll get off my soapbox and let you get back to your thread.</div>
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I also have the getting rich and TV evangelist feeling with Dr. McDougall, but misleading? I think his diet works, but might be <i>strict and boring</i> like Goettling told us.<br><br>
Puppyluv, if you have to buy a book, on which someone is making money, maybe you can make more out of Ornish's book, just leave the fish oil out and take a veg*n substitute.
 

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I also like Ornish over McDougall. Read both of their books but wasn't disciplined enough to stay on either plan. However, I recall I was much more receptive to Ornish's writing.
 

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Well, one of the differences is that Ornish has 2 diets in his program. The one people are usually referring to is the "reversal diet", which is the one that calls for no more than 10% of calories from fat. The other one is the "prevention diet" and allows for no more than 20% of calories from fat. What Ornish takes umbrage with is the AHA diet that gets trumpeted as "low-fat", but allows for 30% of calories from fat. His studies have shown that, especially for patients with Heart Disease, the AHA diet is too high.<br><br><br><br>
This could be off, but McDougall in general recommends no more than 10%.<br><br><br><br>
I don't have any problem with anybody making money off of a book. He has helped a good many people. Plus, he was one of the loudest voices fighting the Atkins propaganda.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Lothar M Kirsch</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I also have the getting rich and TV evangelist feeling with Dr. McDougall, but misleading? I think his diet works, but might be <i>strict and boring</i> like Goettling told us.<br><br>
Puppyluv, if you have to buy a book, on which someone is making money, maybe you can make more out of Ornish's book, just leave the fish oil out and take a veg*n substitute.</div>
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Those 2 guys have already made their fortunes. I can get either one of the books in the library. I was just wondering if anyone on the Veggie Boards had tried them and been successful and would recommend one or the other.<br><br><br><br>
I have lost 5 lbs. in 2 weeks just from switching from omnivorism to vegetarianism. that is simply from cutting out meat. I still eat dairy and eggs but hope to gradually transition to a vegan diet. But I am still very overweight so I was hoping to speed up my weight loss.<br><br><br><br>
There is also a vegetarian (almost vegan) version of The Zone by Barry Sears. It is called <i>The Soy Zone.</i> I checked it out of the library and am reading it now.
 

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Puppy,<br><br><br><br>
I'm not familiar with The Soy Zone (though I've always been skeptical of Barry Sears), but I would not recommend eating heavy amounts of soy. Like all things, there are some people who say it is the greatest thing, then others who say it will kill you from the inside out (I'm being hyperbolic). Either way there is reason to believe you shouldn't eat tons of it (in particular the soy protein isolates). I offer this up as someone who is (still) trying to ween himself off of soy (mostly soymilk).<br><br><br><br>
I think the basic recommendations by McDougall and Ornish to eat lots of vegetables, fresh fruits, whole grains, and legumes and to avoid high fat, high salt, fried and processed foods are the soundest to go with.<br><br><br><br>
Hope that helps.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Lothar M Kirsch</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I also have the getting rich and TV evangelist feeling with Dr. McDougall, but misleading? I think his diet works, but might be <i>strict and boring</i> like Goettling told us.<br><br>
Puppyluv, if you have to buy a book, on which someone is making money, maybe you can make more out of Ornish's book, just leave the fish oil out and take a veg*n substitute.</div>
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Only misleading because he downplays any risks, including but not limited to B12.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kpickell</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Only misleading because he downplays any risks, including but not limited to B12.</div>
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Thanks, I didn't notice that, next time I'll see his book on a shelf I'll have a look if he addresses the issue at all.
 

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I've heard his latest editions do address the issue better, but I haven't looked to see exactly what he says now. He's the guy that originally advocated not washing your fruits to get the b12 you needed. In the seminar I attended (this was 5 years ago) when it was brought up in Q&A he said not to worry about it if you ever used to eat meat because your body stores it for 30 years.<br><br><br><br>
In fact, here's a website that uses McDougall's book to dispell myths including the myth that vegetarians need to worry about B12. <a href="http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/myths.html" target="_blank">http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/myths.html</a> .... And that's how the "don't worry about it" rumors got started.<br><br><br><br>
ETA: I found what he's now stating in new editions and on his website: "I tell pregnant and nursing women, and people following my diet strictly for more than 3 years, to take five micrograms of vitamin B12 each day to ensure that they are getting an adequate supply of the vitamin." /sigh.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>kpickell</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I've heard his latest editions do address the issue better, but I haven't looked to see exactly what he says now. He's the guy that originally advocated not washing your fruits to get the b12 you needed. In the seminar I attended (this was 5 years ago) when it was brought up in Q&A he said not to worry about it if you ever used to eat meat because your body stores it for 30 years.<br><br><br><br>
In fact, here's a website that uses McDougall's book to dispell myths including the myth that vegetarians need to worry about B12. <a href="http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/myths.html" target="_blank">http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/myths.html</a> .... And that's how the "don't worry about it" rumors got started.<br><br><br><br>
ETA: I found what he's now stating in new editions and on his website: "I tell pregnant and nursing women, and people following my diet strictly for more than 3 years, to take five micrograms of vitamin B12 each day to ensure that they are getting an adequate supply of the vitamin." /sigh.</div>
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I am doing a little poll over on the Health forum on this website about Vitamin B-12. I do not know exactly what the McDougall program entails, but if he allows cereal and soymilk that are fortified with vitamin B-12, you have the Vitamin B-12 issue covered, if not just take a daily supplement unless you are older and cannot absorb Vitamin B-12 and then you will have to get an injection about every 3 months or so.<br><br><br><br>
From what I have read, although Vitamin B-12 is essential, you don't need a lot and it can stay in your system a long time (although the time is different for everyone). Any excess vitamin B-12 will just go out of your system. I have heard the thing about not washing fruit, but in this day and age where farmers grow crops near beef, hog and chicken operations with large manure ponds which may spillover during heavy rains, I would not go that route. All fruit and veggies should be washed before eating even if grown on a tree because you never know who has handled the them. It is true that B-12 comes from bacteria that is everywhere, but you can't always separate the good bacteria from the bad bacteria. I also don't believe that you can make enough B-12 in your own gut to get by---at least I wouldn't want to take that chance. As I said in my other post about vitamin B-12, my mother-in-law is suffereing from dementia and they believe it is at least partially caused by her vitamin B-12 deficiency that was not diagnosed until it was irreversible. My own mother takes vitamin B-12 injections because she cannot absorb vitamin B-12 but they found out in time and she is doing fine. Both of them are omnivores by the way so it has nothing to do with a veg*n diet, but with their stomach not being able to absorb B-12. However, vitamin B-12 deficiency is nothing to take lightly esp. for the life-long vegan.
 

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Your mother and grandmother may have antibodies against intrinsic factor and/or parietal cells and so they cannot absorb Vit. B12.<br><br>
Actually our bacterea in the guts produce quite a lot of Vit. B12 but it's too far down in the guts where it cannot be absorbed.<br><br>
With Vit. B12 you need a reliable source. The U.S. has more B12 fortified foods.<br><br>
I take a supplement as Germany doesn't have so many fortified foods.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Lothar M Kirsch</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Your mother and grandmother may have antibodies against intrinsic factor and/or parietal cells and so they cannot absorb Vit. B12.<br><br>
Actually our bacterea in the guts produce quite a lot of Vit. B12 but it's too far down in the guts where it cannot be absorbed.<br><br>
With Vit. B12 you need a reliable source. The U.S. has more B12 fortified foods.<br><br>
I take a supplement as Germany doesn't have so many fortified foods.</div>
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That is all true. Both my mother and my mother-in-law are elderly. It is fairly common for people, including meat eater to lose the ability to absorb vitamin B-12 as they age.<br><br><br><br>
There are several cereals here in the US that are fortified with B-12 and the soymilk I drink is also fortified with it. Also there is a nutritional yeast that can be sprinkled on food that has B-12 in it. But when people get past age 65or 70 they should start being tested for vitamin B-12 deficiency in my opinion, no matter what they eat. If they have a deficiency they should get B-12 injections.
 

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Agreed puppyluv: I test quite a few people on folate and B12 as they are treated with methotrexate (folate antagonist). If you give a high dose of folate you can shroud a B12 defiency, but I found only a few elderly people with a defiency. But finding these few was worth the effort done in many.<br><br>
kpickell: thanks for the link. To get enough B12 out of unwashed fruits/veggies is rediculous. But I remember a passage in one of Forrester's Hornblower novels, where this was suggested, too. But this was an idea of a fictional person in the early 1800s ...
 
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