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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok, at work today i overheard some news that there was a fish in a fish bowl down in the lobby of the building i work in. I then heard that someone had complained that this was animal cruelty. Now most of you know my views, that yes, it is animal cruelty. But i was so happy to hear that there was another person, in the 500 some people that work there that felt the same way. I didn't find out who it was but Im still happy about it.<br><br><br><br>
Then, the person(girl 1) i overheard kept talking about what kind of moron would think it was animal cruelty, then someone else(girl 2) joined in and said something to the effect that maybe the fish should be free to get eaten by a larger fish.(these are actually some people i like at work and sometimes hang out with, they dont know my feelings on the issue, yet). I decide to let that all pass, but as im walking to the fax machine i hear girl 2 say something like well if thats cruel, then they are also being cruel to us by making us be here. I couldn't let that comment pass, so i turned around and pointed out that we are free to leave and the fish is not. No comment to that. Girl 1 asked if i felt that it was cruelty, i looked around to the 7 people sitting there looking at me and proudly said yes i felt that it was cruelty to the fish. Then i briefly explained that i felt owning animals was cruel. Girl 1 asked if her owning a cat was cruel even if the door was always open and the cat was free to leave, i said no, its the cats choice to stay, but locking it up would be cruel. As everyone digests that girl 2 had gone back to her desk and proclaims Petas recent Happy Cow campaign, to which i said i agree with because the cows are not indeed happy and they are propagating a false claim. She said maybe they are happy how do you know. I said well they have machines sucking milk out of their teets all day their calves are taken away from them early on so im pretty sure they arent happy. She said something about the calves werent ending up on a plate, then Girl 2 asked how i knew all this stuff, and i simply stated why do you think i became vegan. Girl 3 said that the convo would have to stop until she can get her cd player working and her head phones on. I took that as i sign that the convo ceased being appropriate for work and went back to my desk. Girl 1 sent me an email saying she was sorry and that she forgot people have differing opinions. Now atleast 7 people know of my views on AR at work, maybe more cause its easy to overhear in that building <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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thanks for posting, that made me smile <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> and good for you for standing up for your beliefs, i don't know if i would've been able to.
 

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Good for you Majake! I think that the one person had to put on her headphones may be a sign that you were actually making her think about animal cruelty.<br><br><br><br>
Now find that other person!
 

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How do we know an animal knows it's being tortured? Some of us can see, without having to look to hard at an animals behavior and health to know how it feels about its enviroment and circumstances. Animals sink into depression and insanity much the way we do. All we have to do is sit still and witness with compassion in our hearts.<br><br>
Good for you in spilling your beliefs. You may not realize it, but every person that heard you will think of your words the next time they walk by that fish tank.
 

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If the fish never know anything different than being in a tank (domestication is what it is called) I don't see how that is cruel to THEM.<br><br><br><br>
It may be cruel to a human that thinks it is cruel, yes, another opinion.<br><br><br><br>
The domesticated, never been in the wild fish, see tanks as their homes just as we see our homes and apartments as our homes. They adapt just like we adapt and have adapted from days of being in caves or wanderers. They have to be in water and cannot go elsewhere and if that is where they have always been (as in the case of many domesticated breeds). They are fed and cared for for people that adopt them as family.<br><br><br><br>
I don't believe they should bring many aquatic species out of the wild and see why. Because many have diseases not curable by the vets and because the wild is their home. Vets haven't done enough research to find cures for disease in wild aquatics.<br><br><br><br>
I am not going to be on a guilt trip about having aquarium fish. I love them and I know they respond to and like me and are happy, very healthy fish. I have seen many animals and can see signs of depression from losing a mate. But not from being in an aquarium. I would never eat them, that's for sure. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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Your aquarium may be very different from the fish bowl the possibly solitary fish is in at majakes office's lobby. The thought of a load of people tapping on the glass and maybe tipping coffee in the water of a glass bowl. That the one bored fish that may have come from somewhere he had privacy and friends before he got to the office lobby. Who knows.
 

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I think many fish can be in an aquarium without it being exactly cruel. But it can depend on factors like size of the tank, noise it's exposed to, or is there any stimulation? Is the water kept clean.<br><br><br><br>
I don't want to buy any more fish, but I would like to own more in the future if I find someone tired of theirs. They are relaxing to tend, and yes, they totally respond to you. I like goldfish best. They seem to have "cheerful personalities", forgive any possible anthropomorphizing. But they seem to like other fish, are curious, hungry, friendly to familiar humans.<br><br><br><br>
I guess I don't like the industry of breeding and selling fish. It's treated them like a commodity. Not to mention so many people get them and don't take care of them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
re: I disagree about the cruelty view<br><br><br><br><b>If the fish never know anything different than being in a tank (domestication is what it is called) I don't see how that is cruel to THEM.</b><br><br><br><br>
it is called holding something captive. It is creating a life that is entirely dependent on the whims of another being.<br><br><br><br><b>It may be cruel to a human that thinks it is cruel, yes, another opinion.</b><br><br><br><br>
opinions do vary<br><br><br><br><b>The domesticated, never been in the wild fish, see tanks as their homes just as we see our homes and apartments as our homes. They adapt just like we adapt and have adapted from days of being in caves or wanderers. They have to be in water and cannot go elsewhere and if that is where they have always been (as in the case of many domesticated breeds). They are fed and cared for for people that adopt them as family.</b><br><br><br><br>
of course they adapt, they are forced to adapt, but unlike us and our homes, fish are not free to leave their bowls, nor are they free to get their own food, or find new stomping grounds and find suitable mates, everything is predetermined for them by those who keep them. From the type of food they eat to when they eat to how much they can eat, who their mates are and what scenery they have, the natural day and night cycle is often disrupted and any survival instincts are lost. And what happens when the captor dies and is rotting in their house for days before anyone finds them? the fish starve and die, helpless to save themselves.<br><br><br><br><b>I don't believe they should bring many aquatic species out of the wild and see why. Because many have diseases not curable by the vets and because the wild is their home. Vets haven't done enough research to find cures for disease in wild aquatics.</b><br><br><br><br>
you dont think they should be held captive because they have diseases? couldnt they just keep them in seperate tanks from the other fish? wouldnt that solve your diseased fish problem? I don think vets should worry about the diseases in the wild, disease helps control the populations.<br><br><br><br><b>I am not going to be on a guilt trip about having aquarium fish. I love them and I know they respond to and like me and are happy, very healthy fish. I have seen many animals and can see signs of depression from losing a mate. But not from being in an aquarium. I would never eat them, that's for sure.</b><br><br><br><br>
im sure they are very glad for your not eating them, but then i guess it doesnt matter since its not their choice, they are after all not in control at the moment.
 

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I have read all of your points, majake, and at one point have thought through those things, too, but I have my view and I believe under today's circumstances my view is the correct one for me. I'm sure other's feel like I do, too.<br><br><br><br>
I do not see fish as commodities and would never sell mine or any of my pet family. The way things are though are not my doing. Petshops exist and sell and I bought my pet family to adopt and care for and love them all and I do just that.<br><br><br><br>
You may call it holding something captive and that is your seemingly unyielding way of looking at it but I still disagree with you and very strongly. I also feel annoyed at your accusations toward me. You are being judgemental to me and other's who care for fish.<br><br><br><br>
The fish I take care of and are my family and whom I love and they see my "whims" as caring for them, feeding them and cleaning their tanks. I get them all they need and give them a variety of things.<br><br><br><br>
I see it that I adopted my fish from a place that sold them as "feeders" and did them a favor as opposed to them being other fish's dinner. I have kept the offspring because to give them away would mean they would be used as feeders elsewhere. With me they are alive and they would have been much worse off. Open your eyes to this: Their only homes have been in a shop aquarium or in someone else's home. They are not wild and have no where else to go where they would survive for 5 minutes. Knowing no other life means they do not know any other life and this is normal to them. There you can take away them feeling slighted in any way.<br><br><br><br>
I am in physical pain when I clean out their aquariums but I do it and smile at them yet.<br><br><br><br>
Would you pour them in the creek or lake and have the bass eat them up in a second? I have a heart, and would not do that. You are being one sided and blind to the points I make, so far at least.<br><br><br><br>
Although I do not have to tell you this I will so you will know how one person like me does things. I have made plans that if anything happens to me my fish and other aquatics friends and pet friends will be cared for. And you have never cared for them like I have. I am also not about to die. But anyone can die and their children be left, too, but people make arrangements for such catastophies. I call them all my friends whom I care dearly for and love. I would care for a helpless friend and that's what they (the species who live with me) are without me. They need me. That is not my doing either!! Do you suppose all the pet shops should just open up their doors and let every species go "free to die of starvation" or "free to freeze to death" or "free to die of disease" or "free to die of abuse" and so on types of "free"? Is that your answer to animal population control? It's not mine, adoption and birth control are.<br><br><br><br>
If guppies were thrown into the wild they would die from larger fish eating them. Fish and other aquatics cannabalize their own and people who adopt many aquatics and care for them well are doing them a favor. I have a special touch with animals and always have. I bet you have not seen the amount of aquatics I have who died a natural death with me and became good friends with me till the end. I worried over my pet friends' welfare at home, spent countless nights up worrying about them when they were ill, kept their environment safe and even fought for their right to an unpolluted enviroment and was told to move over it, too. That is how much I care, buddy.<br><br><br><br>
They (aquatics and many other domesticated species) adapted long ago from where they were from originally many many years ago-and that is not my doing nor my fault. You are like someone talking about slaves coming here years ago and still blaming the present people for what was done to them in the 1600s or whenever earlier. I suggest you get a hold on where reality is now for species. You really do not know what you are talkiing about and just want to blame good-intending people like me and call us cruel when we are not.<br><br><br><br>
My fish family are happy (and how can YOU tell if they are or not? You are not here--I am not meanly controlling them but giving them a loving home where they can and do do their thing) I can tell they are happy here very well. Being in charge of my family's enviroment is something I do well for them and in kindness.<br><br><br><br>
I disagree with your view on diseased species and that it is controlling the population to let them die. Where is your mind at? Really, you need to think more on this. Should they do that for humans, too? I, at least, have the heart to want them (researchers) to help them and all the species I've cared for to survive their full lives. My pet family has adapted happily, too, from the petstores. I see to it that they do. I spend lots of time with them communicating and being kind to them. All of the species I have cared for would not be alive today because they would have been eaten by predators (the undomesticated species I've had). I did not want to see them cannibalized and so I brought them home to live their full life. I did not want them to dye of disease and took them to vets and cared for them and worried and cried for them just like we do for babies. And I read and researched much on how to care for them all. Got just what they needed and did the best I could.<br><br><br><br>
Do you also think human babies should be left to wander in the field and be "free" to die of disease and abuse in the wild, too. Are human babies held captive by us mothers? I am a mother to all of my pet friends and can see only love for me from them and because of my love and caring for all of them as my babies. AND BECAUSE LIKE BABIES, IN THIS COUNTRY PETSHOP ANIMALS CANNOT CARE FOR THEMSELVES. They never can, most of them. And they are free with me and I make them comforable here. I don't have to convince them and they are the ones who matter most to me. But I need to tell you how I feel about your remarks.<br><br><br><br>
I just want you to know that there is another view from a kind loving woman who is good intentioned and not cruel.<br><br><br><br>
I wonder if maybe you might be one who would not spend a penny to adopt a petshop species, I wonder? Let them all die? Because they are for sale? Now the shoe is on the other foot? I adopted to save life and do what is right and good.<br><br><br><br>
Even though I do not believe in marketing animals I adopt them out of love and concern and because I know I will give them a good home and care an awful lot about them.<br><br><br><br>
End of argument with me. I am not posting in this thread anymore. I see your point and you can see mine-if you will open your mind to it.<br><br><br><br>
I am an animal activist and have been for a long time and good intentioned and doing right as I have thought about this long and hard. So I resent deeply being told what I consider a bunch of baloney by you about me. You said that I am forcing something on my animal friends or being cruel to them and your accusatiions are so wrong.<br><br><br><br>
And, if you care so much about that fish in the bowl at work, I would take it home and give it a better environment or set up a better environment at work for it. What have you DONE for that fish? Do something good for it and then you will be doing more than talking about cruelty. Make sure you do everything you should for it, too. Good luck to you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">originally posted by Birdlady<br><br><br><br><b>You are like someone talking about slaves coming here years ago and still blaming the present people for what was done to them in the 1600s or whenever earlier. I suggest you get a hold on where reality is now for species.</b></div>
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i only had time to glance at your post and will come back later tonight when im not at work, but i thought i would respond to the ASAP. Your anology is flawed in that you are still keeping and upholding the traditions of our forebearers, so you are just as responsible for the current state of affairs as they are.
 

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Birdlady- the reason there are animals being bred and kept in petstores is bc people keep buying them.<br><br><br><br>
People stop buying them, they stop getting bred. There are puppies in some pet stores from puppy mills, most of us agree in order to not support that practice, we need to refuse to buy those puppies, and instead adopt from a shelter. Same for all other kinds of pets. Don't pay breeders.<br><br><br><br>
I do care for a fish, and would like to care for other animals too, for their sake and my own pleasure. But I don't want to buy them, I will just be perpetuating the problem. If I want a pet, I can find one who's owner doesn't want it anymore.<br><br><br><br>
Unlike Majake, I do think a fish and other animals can live without suffering if cared for properly, even in captivity.<br><br><br><br>
I also want to say, I have no doubt that you care about animals. I feel so bad for the animals that I see in the pet stores, I want to buy them, but like I said, that will just encourage them to breed more. (Not to mention all the fish and other animals that die in transport on the way to the petstore.) It is a practice I can no longer support.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thalia, Birdlady, i do not think the fish suffer persay, in captivity, in as they are being hurt, but that the practice of keeping them from having freewill is in itself a cruel practice, in addition to the below.<br><br><br><br>
While im sure you take wonderful care of you pets Birdlady, i feel that keeping pets and buying them from pets stores is propagating the idea that animals cannot take care of themselves, such an idea leads to more animals being raised by humans and being raised in such a way to lose their natural instincts, which does lead to dependency on humans. I think the practice of making animals dependent on humans is cruel, no matter how well the animals are treated. I feel that animals, even if hunted, frozen, staving and diseased are better off as a whole, than they are being dependent on humans. I also believe in the laws of nature, prey and predator, it is a natural cycle that should not be interupted by humans, which is what you are doing when you take animals out of the wild to care for it and protect it from predators, and in doing so you starve the predator, which as an animal lover im sure you dont want be the cause of an animal starving to death. Disease does help control the population of species, as do predators and the amount of food available, they are natural population control devices, though no one actually created them to work that way, it just happened to work out that way.<br><br><br><br>
Human babies are born unto humans and should be raised by humans until they are able to take care of themselves, the whole rasing process of humans is designed to make it possible for babies to grow up and someday live their own life, this is not true in the case of animals, they are kept and trained to be dependent on humans for the rest of their lives. I feel that animals should be raised by their rightful parents and taught by their rightful parents to survive the world on their own.<br><br><br><br>
I understand your points Birdlady, and i too feel the desire to help animals i see, but for the good of animals as a whole, i think it is better if i do not.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by Thalia</i><br><br><b>People stop buying them, they stop getting bred.</b></div>
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Depends on the kind of fish.<br><br><br><br>
Tropical fish are hard to breed and are "just" caught in the wild.<br><br>
Some kinds are threadend with extinction because of this.<br><br><br><br>
The majority of the fish caught in the wild for aquaria dies on the way to the animal-shop......
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block"><i>Originally posted by 1vegan</i><br><br><b>Depends on the kind of fish.<br><br><br><br>
Tropical fish are hard to breed and are "just" caught in the wild.<br><br>
Some kinds are threadend with extinction because of this.<br><br><br><br>
The majority of the fish caught in the wild for aquaria dies on the way to the animal-shop......</b></div>
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Good point. Salt water fish, I believe, are taken from their environment, and probably to some detriment of the environment they came from.<br><br><br><br>
ETA- I found one person's flash of insight and then subsequent rationalization:<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Title As You Wish:<br><br>
Fish Ethics<br><br>
by Heather Candelaria<br><br>
November 1998<br><br>
This month I would like to bring up a topic which still makes me a little uneasy. I'm going to refer to this topic as `fish ethics'. It has to do with the way people treat their fish and whether or not that treatment is to be considered `humane'.<br><br><br><br>
These issues are much more complex than simply deciding whether or not it is appropriate to put two male betta splendens together to see them fight. I'm talking about things like buying `feeder' fish at 10 for a dollar, either to feed to other fish or to sacrifice in the process of getting a tank cycled through its ammonia and nitrite-heavy periods. I'm talking about the way discus have had their immune systems bred out of them, or how some fish just simply do not adapt to captivity well enough to warrant attempting to keep them. I even ponder whether I can honestly agree that it is a good idea to keep salt water fish; we capture fish which live in the largest body of water on earth, schooling but the hundreds over miles of coral reef, and put them in a teeny tiny glass box in our living room just because we think that they are ``darn pretty fish''.<br><br><br><br>
I myself find the most abominable genetic frankenstein experiments (i.e. fancy goldfish) to be ``darn pretty fish''. These monstrosities are barely capable of living the life of a fish, and sometimes need to be treated more like their poetic name of ``water flowers''. We've been selectively breeding these mutants for over a thousand years, and what we are doing to them is definitely not for their own benefit.<br><br><br><br>
If we buy feeder fish we can justify the loss of piscine life because we are sacrificing one fish to another, and those feeders are farm raised just to become some other fishes dinner, right? (the breeding of feeder fish is not an inevitable act of God. It is a human practice supported by buyers.-thalia) Its all just like in the wild and that somehow seems to make it all seem `okay'.<br><br><br><br>
When my customers come to me with their tails of woe of the death of their fish, I will occasionally let them have the terrible truth that it was all their own fault. Other times, especially when the person has done everything in their power to save the fish, I'll tell them to look around the store, and then I'll inform them that every single fish in the store is going to die. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but some time within the next few years most of them will probably end up dead. The only thing to realize is that every day a fish lives in an aquarium, is a day longer that fish has survived. I tell them not to think of every fish death as a failure, but of every surviving fish as a success.<br><br><br><br>
The truth is that in most cases a fish has a much better chance at a long and happy life in your fish tank than he does in the wild. This may sound odd, but if you look at it in the correct way you will see the point I'm trying to make. The correct way is to look at the percentages of fish which survive.<br><br><br><br>
There are a great number of fish harvested from the wild every year, but in most cases the fish industry barely even comes close to making the slightest dent in the population. The reason for this is that most fish engage in the reproductive method of having hundreds of offspring in the hopes that one or two will make it to adulthood. This method of breeding, means that during a certain period (like the rainy season in South America) there are billions and billions of fish born, but by the time the dry season comes around, only a tiny fraction of that original number remains.<br><br><br><br>
Where do they go? Well, close to 99% of them die of starvation, predation, disease, and environmental accidents. Some of them are collected and become members of our favorite past time.<br><br><br><br>
Of the fish that make it to your aquarium, How many live through their first year? I'd be willing to bet that it is easily more than 1%. (um, but commercial collectors collect adults, not fry.-thalia) And if those fish happen to spawn for you, what percentage of the fry generally live, and get passed on to other hobbyists? All things being equal, you've got to admit that the fish we care for have life pretty easy compared to their counterparts in the wild. (But they have no choice, do they? We are judging 'easy' and 'good' based on our own values, not the fishs'. Even if they live longer, they are still in a tank, how do we know they'd not prefer to take their chances in the wild? -thalia)<br><br><br><br>
In addition to having a better chance at life in our tanks, remember that for every little tetra harvested from the wild there is a little more food left for his brother back in the Amazon, and for every batch of fish taken from the bottom of the food chain, there are also others taken from the top of the food chain, and so some nasty cichlid who would have eaten the tetra brothers, gets to eat farm raised goldfish instead.</div>
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<br><a href="http://www.gsas.org/Articles/1999/title-ethics.html" target="_blank">http://www.gsas.org/Articles/1999/title-ethics.html</a><br><br><br><br><br><br>
 

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Ethical considerations aside, I would experience it as extremely horrible torture if I would be put inside a small closet where I would be my whole life. I of course have more cognitive capacities than a fish and therefore a more evolved capacity to experience my surroundings, but still, the idea is absolutely repulsive. (This comment is about a fish bowl, not about a big aquarium).<br><br><br><br>
Having an animal as a so-called captive is not immoral I think, <i>if it serves the animal's best interests</i>. An animal may have an interest to go outside, but I don't think this interest is as important as the interest not to be driven over by a car, for example. An animal cannot always judge these interests correctly. (Hmm, this still became ethical consideration..)
 

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What's the attraction of seeing a vegetable float in a tank of water, anyway? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/huh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":confused:">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Kurmudgeon</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
What's the attraction of seeing a vegetable float in a tank of water, anyway? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/huh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":confused:"></div>
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Evidently they talk and lose their children.
 
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