This may be in the wrong section. Feel free to move it.
Like-Minded Friends who Still Eat Tons of Meat
Hi everyone--
I was having a discussion with a friend earlier about how meat-eating exacerbates the problems associated with global warming/climate change. We also discussed ethical issues with regards to how animals are treated.
He agreed that fighting climate change was urgent and that animal agriculture was a significant contributor, and that animals were generally treated terribly within the factory farm system.
But he then gave a general "meh" answer about changing his diet, which consists of lots and lots of red meat.
For some reason, I got really mad about this (this was a Facebook chat, not in-person chat). I don't understand someone who agrees that eating meat (particularly factory-farmed meat) is terrible both environmentally and ethically, but then is completely uninterested in doing anything at all to help solve the problem and sort of shrugs his shoulders.
I just don't understand the disconnect sometimes.
Sorry to come off a bit angry. Anyway, thanks for reading this and letting me vent a little.
I was having a discussion with a friend earlier about how meat-eating exacerbates the problems associated with global warming/climate change. We also discussed ethical issues with regards to how animals are treated.
He agreed that fighting climate change was urgent and that animal agriculture was a significant contributor, and that animals were generally treated terribly within the factory farm system.
But he then gave a general "meh" answer about changing his diet, which consists of lots and lots of red meat.
For some reason, I got really mad about this (this was a Facebook chat, not in-person chat). I don't understand someone who agrees that eating meat (particularly factory-farmed meat) is terrible both environmentally and ethically, but then is completely uninterested in doing anything at all to help solve the problem and sort of shrugs his shoulders.
I just don't understand the disconnect sometimes.
Sorry to come off a bit angry. Anyway, thanks for reading this and letting me vent a little.
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
My roommate is kind of like this, because he lives with me and I talk about it a lot he knows a lot about animal and environmental issues. Even though he knows about them all, and agree's that they are bad, and is fully aware to admit how bad the animal agriculture industries are, he still won't change his high-meat and high-dairy diet.
It doesn't really bother me though, because compared to many people I know he's much more open to vegan things. He eats mock meat with me sometimes, instead of real meat, will try vegan restaurants and all sorts of vegan food. And most importantly, he never mocks veganism, which is more than I can say for a lot of other omni people I know. So even though he still eats meat I at least think he's open and willing to the whole idea of veganism which is a start.
But I do know how you feel. And somehow it can be even more frustrating when people say they know how bad it is, but keep doing it anyway, than people who are clueless and think meat is harmless.
It doesn't really bother me though, because compared to many people I know he's much more open to vegan things. He eats mock meat with me sometimes, instead of real meat, will try vegan restaurants and all sorts of vegan food. And most importantly, he never mocks veganism, which is more than I can say for a lot of other omni people I know. So even though he still eats meat I at least think he's open and willing to the whole idea of veganism which is a start.
But I do know how you feel. And somehow it can be even more frustrating when people say they know how bad it is, but keep doing it anyway, than people who are clueless and think meat is harmless.
Thanks for the reply, Crouton.
That's a good way of looking at it, and I'll try to keep it in mind. I just don't understand why a person who could so clearly recognize a problem would also be so indifferent about trying to do something about it.
Thanks for reading.
That's a good way of looking at it, and I'll try to keep it in mind. I just don't understand why a person who could so clearly recognize a problem would also be so indifferent about trying to do something about it.
Thanks for reading.
Keep repeating the message. Calmly. Coolly. With no drama. Eventually the connection will happen. It's frustrating but I think eventually people will start to see the light.
I live with a dedicated omnivore - who is finally (after years) starting to see that red meat and processed meat in particular is super bad for you. He's starting to cut down on things. He's starting to eat veggie food without complaint (and without adding tinned tuna to veggie stir fry - vomit).
People associate so much with food - family, friends, memories etc etc that it's never just about what they eat (but this was Grandma's recipe!).
I live with a dedicated omnivore - who is finally (after years) starting to see that red meat and processed meat in particular is super bad for you. He's starting to cut down on things. He's starting to eat veggie food without complaint (and without adding tinned tuna to veggie stir fry - vomit).
People associate so much with food - family, friends, memories etc etc that it's never just about what they eat (but this was Grandma's recipe!).
This is such a common scenario. People are very attached to their routines and traditions, and food is so personal, they will come up with any reason to defend eating meat. When someone is aware of the problems with animal agriculture, that is pretty much all you can do. You can't make a change for them; they have to decide in their own time. Maybe they will never change, or maybe they will be the people who need a more perfect meat/dairy/egg substitute before they can finally stop eating animals.
If you want to stay friends with this person, I would suggest you agree to disagree. You can always lead by example and show them how easy it is to be vegan -- bring them vegan treats or have them over for a vegan meal.
If you want to stay friends with this person, I would suggest you agree to disagree. You can always lead by example and show them how easy it is to be vegan -- bring them vegan treats or have them over for a vegan meal.
If I didn't have meat-eating friends I would have no real-world friends at all. You don't have to feel respect for their dietary choices, though if you were ever a meat-eater yourself you surely get how they feel: Their way is the cultural norm they've always known, around which their life-long habits have formed; the default assumption is that this is the way it is and the way it will always be. You don't have to feel respect because nobody gets to tell you how to feel, but you do have to give respect if you still want their friendship. On FaceBook I do push back against stupid jokes and comments on vegetarians and vegans, but it's always in context of why I do what I do, not why they should change what they do. Nearly always. I'll respond to a joke with a joke: there's an idiot meme going around about how vegetarians live nine long, useless, horrible bacon-less years longer than meat-eaters. This is actually a pretty good friend, and in my response I offered to run the falafel station at the buffet after his funeral.
Oh, thank you for this. I wish I'd thought of that years ago...:shifty:If I didn't have meat-eating friends I would have no real-world friends at all. You don't have to feel respect for their dietary choices, though if you were ever a meat-eater yourself you surely get how they feel: Their way is the cultural norm they've always known, around which their life-long habits have formed; the default assumption is that this is the way it is and the way it will always be. You don't have to feel respect because nobody gets to tell you how to feel, but you do have to give respect if you still want their friendship. On FaceBook I do push back against stupid jokes and comments on vegetarians and vegans, but it's always in context of why I do what I do, not why they should change what they do. Nearly always. I'll respond to a joke with a joke: there's an idiot meme going around about how vegetarians live nine long, useless, horrible bacon-less years longer than meat-eaters. This is actually a pretty good friend, and in my response I offered to run the falafel station at the buffet after his funeral.
You know someone will never change their diet. And you have to respect that.Or. other people who are not veggies have to respect our lifestyle. Everything is in tolerance.Hi everyone--
I was having a discussion with a friend earlier about how meat-eating exacerbates the problems associated with global warming/climate change. We also discussed ethical issues with regards to how animals are treated.
He agreed that fighting climate change was urgent and that animal agriculture was a significant contributor, and that animals were generally treated terribly within the factory farm system.
But he then gave a general "meh" answer about changing his diet, which consists of lots and lots of red meat.
For some reason, I got really mad about this (this was a Facebook chat, not in-person chat). I don't understand someone who agrees that eating meat (particularly factory-farmed meat) is terrible both environmentally and ethically, but then is completely uninterested in doing anything at all to help solve the problem and sort of shrugs his shoulders.
I just don't understand the disconnect sometimes.
Sorry to come off a bit angry. Anyway, thanks for reading this and letting me vent a little.
My suggestion would be to make this person lots of delicious vegan food until they realize that they don't need meat anyway. Logic and reason is half the battle. The other battle is with their stomach and sense of comfort. If they think that vegan food is bland/gross/unsatisfying, they will never think veganism is possible for them.
I had to reply here, because I realized I used to be this friend.
I would always support vegetarians in an argument but continued to eat meat. For me, it is the same as any other change you make to become a better person or, even more, to make a better world: thought and action are usually more far from each other than you expect them to be. You know cheap clothing often come from factories that exploit the workers, you still buy them because your friends do, or because they're cheap and you like them. You have an opinion but sometimes you don't express or don't act on it because of convenience or cowardice. You know taking your bike instead of your car is better for the environment and for you, but you still mostly use the car.
I think this is because of this mechanism of emotional distancing. People can see other people dying on TV and continue eating their dinner like it's some kind of movie. They can talk about human rights but they don't protest every day, for example. One the one hand, it is natural, otherwise we would go crazy, feeling the suffering of everybody in this world, on the other hand it's cruel and debilitating. And that's why many people become vegetarians not because they agree with the theoretical aspect, but because they watch a movie or read a book or have an experience that moves them or shock them.
But if your friends are supporting you and talk in favor of veg(etari)anism and try your food, speaking of personal experience, they are on the brink of becoming vegetarians, I think. Why don't you talk to them openly and ask your questions to them? Like "what's holding you back"?
I would always support vegetarians in an argument but continued to eat meat. For me, it is the same as any other change you make to become a better person or, even more, to make a better world: thought and action are usually more far from each other than you expect them to be. You know cheap clothing often come from factories that exploit the workers, you still buy them because your friends do, or because they're cheap and you like them. You have an opinion but sometimes you don't express or don't act on it because of convenience or cowardice. You know taking your bike instead of your car is better for the environment and for you, but you still mostly use the car.
I think this is because of this mechanism of emotional distancing. People can see other people dying on TV and continue eating their dinner like it's some kind of movie. They can talk about human rights but they don't protest every day, for example. One the one hand, it is natural, otherwise we would go crazy, feeling the suffering of everybody in this world, on the other hand it's cruel and debilitating. And that's why many people become vegetarians not because they agree with the theoretical aspect, but because they watch a movie or read a book or have an experience that moves them or shock them.
But if your friends are supporting you and talk in favor of veg(etari)anism and try your food, speaking of personal experience, they are on the brink of becoming vegetarians, I think. Why don't you talk to them openly and ask your questions to them? Like "what's holding you back"?
Well, if your friend already cut down on his meat consumption and maybe tries to avoid factory-farmed meat most of the time, it is already a small step forward, don't you think? It's better than eating two burgers a day 
Give him some time and lead by example, maybe you'll "turn" him as well
Give him some time and lead by example, maybe you'll "turn" him as well
This honestly makes me angrier than anything, it strikes me as so unbelievably selfish, entitled and "having a first world problem" that I can't even deal with it.
When people aren't oblivious but actually KNOW what's happening to the environment, as well as factory farmed animals - but actually KNOW people are starving, land is running out, the earth is being destroyed and this could severely impair or end humanity, and won't at least go lacto-ovo, I pretty much want to rip their face off.
It amazes me how well I handle omnivores on general being around, but this particular issue just makes me hate Western people, especially Americans.
When people aren't oblivious but actually KNOW what's happening to the environment, as well as factory farmed animals - but actually KNOW people are starving, land is running out, the earth is being destroyed and this could severely impair or end humanity, and won't at least go lacto-ovo, I pretty much want to rip their face off.
It amazes me how well I handle omnivores on general being around, but this particular issue just makes me hate Western people, especially Americans.
Actually no, that's not true. Imo, it's like saying we should tolerate that pedophilia and slavery are right for some people.You know someone will never change their diet. And you have to respect that.Or. other people who are not veggies have to respect our lifestyle. Everything is in tolerance.
Tolerance has its place, but isn't an end unto itself in any rational philosophy.
I read an article on the psychology of someone understanding how meat eating is erroneous on several different levels, the reasons are rationally compelling for so many reasons, and yet this logic only works on a certain kind of person. Everyone else is actually more convinced by visceral impact, not even "leading by example" (though sure that works on a different sort of person)...the visceral route is the most effective en masse.This is such a common scenario. People are very attached to their routines and traditions, and food is so personal, they will come up with any reason to defend eating meat. When someone is aware of the problems with animal agriculture, that is pretty much all you can do. You can't make a change for them; they have to decide in their own time. Maybe they will never change, or maybe they will be the people who need a more perfect meat/dairy/egg substitute before they can finally stop eating animals.
If you want to stay friends with this person, I would suggest you agree to disagree. You can always lead by example and show them how easy it is to be vegan -- bring them vegan treats or have them over for a vegan meal.
That includes both things like delicious vegan food, and putting the images of horror in people's faces so they can't emotionally distance, which is why I'm all for vigilant vegans (but not violence like saying all meat eaters should die, there's no need for that).
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
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