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As I've been transitioning back to veganism, it occured to me that many vegetarians give up the least cruel animal products first, and the cruelest products last.<br><br><br><br>
For instance, first someone might become a "semi-vegetarian" - the one who still eats chicken and turkey. From what I've seen, poultry farms are among the most cruel, while beef cattle often spend much of their lives grazing outdoors.<br><br><br><br>
Then someone becomes a lacto-ovo, holding onto dairy and eggs. IMO, dairy cows, veal calves, and laying hens have possibly the worst lives of ALL the farm animals!<br><br><br><br>
It's almost as if we've been brainwashed - a vegetarian would most certainly not eat a steak or a hamburger, but can eat eggs and a cheese sandwichh, when really, it might be less cruel to eat the steak.<br><br><br><br>
Not sure if I have a point or not. It's just kind of a recent "a-ha!" moment I had. Hope I don't offend any lacto-ovos with this post, I've been one myself, very recently in fact! I'm just so glad to be becoming vegan again! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/broccoli.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":bobo:">
 

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I'm not sure that I have/want to offer a lot on this subject, except...<br><br><br><br>
CONGRATS for going vegan again!!<br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/hamster.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":hamster:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/carrot.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":vebo:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/pibo.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":pibo:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/carrot.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":vebo:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/hamster.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":hamster:">
 

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Yeah it's interesting isn't it? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> Another good example is someone who is vigilant about avoiding gelatin in yogurt or rennet in cheese, overlooking the fact that the dairy in both is probably the cruelest part.<br><br><br><br>
ETA: And yay for colorful going vegan again! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/broccoli.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":bobo:"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/carrot.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":vebo:">
 

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yeah i completely understand....and using that as a basis i'd probably be far more inclined to say-eat some organic beef than i would drink milk.<br><br><br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 

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I know what you mean. When I was a teenager, I was sure that it was worse to eat "red meat" like cows and pigs, for some reason, and that milk and eggs weren't a big deal. It's only after I became vegan that I realized the truth.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>colorful</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><br>
It's almost as if we've been brainwashed - a vegetarian would most certainly not eat a steak or a hamburger, but can eat eggs and a cheese sandwichh, when really, it might be less cruel to eat the steak.</div>
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Well it has to do with the symbolic aspect that eating someone's corpse is seen as more "disrespectful" or objectifying than eating someone's bodily secretions.<br><br><br><br>
Vegan advocacy should try to diminish the impact of that symbolic aspect and stress the cruelty involved.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Sevenseas</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Well it has to do with the symbolic aspect that eating someone's corpse is seen as more "disrespectful" or objectifying than eating someone's bodily secretions.<br><br><br><br>
Vegan advocacy should try to diminish the impact of that symbolic aspect and stress the cruelty involved.</div>
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I believe you are correct. And yes.
 

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Although I think a lot of it is based on the theory that you can take an animal's byproducts without harming the animal. Of course modern dairy and egg farms don't work like that, but those ideas still persist.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>meatless</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Yeah it's interesting isn't it? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)"> Another good example is someone who is vigilant about avoiding gelatin in yogurt or rennet in cheese, overlooking the fact that the dairy in both is probably the cruelest part.</div>
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Absolutely. I know that kpickell and I have both mentioned (as have a couple of others) that it seems silly to eat eggs & factory farm dairy yet avoid industry by-products such as gelatin or rennet. It is almost counter-intuitive in a way, and would seem more logical that one would eschew eggs & dairy before byproducts. (or perhaps only choose eggs & dairy from local sustainable farms or their own pets etc)
 

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People love to tease me and say "Well why don't you drink milk or eat cheese, the cows need to be milked or they'll be in pain"..... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/wall.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":wall:"><br><br><br><br>
After explaining it the first 2 or 3 times I gave up and just agree with them and say "yea you're right" and go back to my business. *shrug*<br><br><br><br>
/Edit/ Oops I had a point to this <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/blush.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":eek:"> Where I was going was ... yea I agree with you on how people are cofused with the cruelty. It just goes to show you the ignorance of it all. I dunno maybe I'm vain or have a big head or something but veganism to me is enlightenment. Once you know the truth, how could you support it?
 

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I was talking about this today, actually. If I am picking and choosing, I should leave the milk and eggs alone and eat the meat. But that seems silly, now, doesn't it?<br><br><br><br>
And I'm definately going for the big stuff before the trace elements, myself. No meat, eggs, dairy... but having to watch for the traces of milk and eggs, still... gelatin can be sneakily in some things, etc. Gotta be a more fervent lable-reader.
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>colorful</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
From what I've seen, poultry farms are among the most cruel, <b>while beef cattle often spend much of their lives grazing outdoors</b>.<br><br><br></div>
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Colorful, I don't know if you were being facetious or not, but this is most defininately untrue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Lilith</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Colorful, I don't know if you were being facetious or not, but this is most defininately untrue.</div>
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I wasn't being facetious. Whenever we drive to my in-laws I see hundreds of cattle grazing outdoors along the way, the whole way across the state of Washington. I assumed these are beef cattle, and can't imagine that there are THAT many free-range or organic farms along the way, but that beef cattle do get to spend a good deal of their life that way. Please correct me if I am wrong!
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>colorful</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
I wasn't being facetious. Whenever we drive to my in-laws I see hundreds of cattle grazing outdoors along the way, <b>the whole way across the state of Washington.</b> I assumed these are beef cattle, and can't imagine that there are THAT many free-range <b>or organic farms along the way,</b> but that beef cattle do get to spend a good deal of their life that way. Please correct me if I am wrong!</div>
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Just from this link <a href="http://csanr.wsu.edu/Organic/" target="_blank">http://csanr.wsu.edu/Organic/</a> shows how progressive your state is with respect to organic farms. Hopefully they are as being progssive with "beef cattle" as well.
 

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I too have seen many free roaming meat cattle in some places.<br><br>
Sometimes I cannot tell from the distance if I am looking at meat or dairy cows. I've also seen feedlots. I'm assuming overall, most of the meat froms the feedlots?. There are no feedlots here, just roaming meat cattle.<br><br>
Am not sure what percentage of the meat sold here is local.<br><br>
Somewhere around there's even a large buffalo?/bisen? farm.
 

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In defence of the OL's....Eggs and milk don't <i>directly</i> cause death unlike meat, in fact if the two industries were not linked it could be done w/out causing death at all- like the Hare Krishna method of taking just a little milk from cows and ;leaving plenty for their calves while regarding them as sacred, and just taking menstrual waste discarded eggs from hens.<br><br><br><br>
HOWEVER that is not how the industry works and would not be sustainable and profitable and is why I decided to go all the way to veganism. I don't rule out entirely eating eggs from rescued chickens, or milk from sacred cows if I ever holiday in India or somewhere that regards cows as sacred but not here, with the industry how it is, it is not getting my financial support!<br><br><br><br>
As for the meat issue, well I totally agree with you on that one on chicken and fish being crueller than free range red meat. Chicken is one of the cruellest meats there are so why eat that if you shun red meat! As for pescatarians, there is a common myth that fish do not feel pain, but it is exactly that- a myth- and I think a vast majority of them who give up meat for reasons of animal welfare may be unaware of this and also under the impression fish are wild- wrong! Many fish are now factory farmed too. Fish is also environmentally unsustainable with many species seeing extinction in the near future, which could cause a devastating effect on the ecosystem, plus seals are are also culled to prevent them further lowering fish stocks. So fish most definitely are not cruelty free.
 

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I agree with Colourful's point too. Since my boyfriend eats meat, I try to get him to buy lamb rather than chicken, since it's going to be one or the other.
 

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I plan on being a vegan some day, but as it is right now I eat dairy and eggs. It would be too tough, a lot of vegans have to buy specific vegan-brand foods, and I still live with my parents. I hate how the chickens are treated, but we do have quite a few dairy farms around here... and the cows seem to have it okay, they aren't afraid of people, and spend most of the day lazing around. Whose to say what kind of hormones they inject in to the poor cows, but at least they seem to have OK lives other than that. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/undecided.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":-/">
 

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<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>OregonAmy</strong> <a href="/forum/post/0"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br>
Absolutely. I know that kpickell and I have both mentioned (as have a couple of others) that it seems silly to eat eggs & factory farm dairy yet avoid industry by-products such as gelatin or rennet. It is almost counter-intuitive in a way, and would seem more logical that one would eschew eggs & dairy before byproducts.</div>
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I'm one of the people who have said this a few times here. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/images/smilies/smiley.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title=":)">
 
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