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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
MODERATOR'S NOTE:
This thread was created by Lucky Charm to avoid cluttering up the "I don't want marriage or children" thread. Several posts have been moved from that thread into this one, so there may be some discontinuity of discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

This is a terrible and somewhat arrogant argument.

1) you really can't guarantee how your kids will turn out. For example, I've met people who were raised veg*n, with all the animal welfare/rights reasons, who now eat meat. You can influence, but you can't say that your kids will "continue the social reform that I believe in." I think opposite to my parents in a lot of ways.

2) most of us are FROM the "dumb masses," not from people who were really into social change. The best way to affect future generations is not to get into a race with the "dumb masses" and see who can produce the most children and hope that they'll carry on your work, but to actually work to change other people by doing outreach to the "dumb masses." With all the time and resources it takes to raise children, you could spend that being an activist and have an even bigger direct impact on other people's values.

Also, in this post http://www.veggieboards.com/newvb/sh...=1#post2874842 you say your kids aren't even vegetarian. So...what about this social change?
My kids are under the age of 3. I believe this much too young to become vegatarian. I would also never prohibit my children from eating meat. If it is their choice to become vegatarian then so be it. If not, then so be this too. I do not necessarily mean the social change of vegetarian, I mean social reform in general, as vegetarians are generally morally aware in other ways as well.

If we are from the "dumb masses" as you say, then surely this shows you that it is difficult to influence people who already have their ideas set in stone. Any social idea you may have could end with you. What is to say the next generation will care about what you are hoping will change?

It is rather unfair to imply that I would expect my children to be my mignions so to speak. If you raise a child to respect other beings, then this is a large reform, as there are not many such people out there.

And if you do a good job, you can be sure that your children will turn out well.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill View Post

My kids are under the age of 3. I believe this much too young to become vegatarian. I would also never prohibit my children from eating meat. If it is their choice to become vegatarian then so be it. If not, then so be this too. I do not necessarily mean the social change of vegetarian, I mean social reform in general, as vegetarians are generally morally aware in other ways as well.
Well you are misinformed about nutrition. Why do you think your kids need animal flesh?

What kind of "moral awareness" are you talking about? It must not include not hurting and killing others who are weaker than oneself, and not enslaving others, because that's what's involved in meat eating. You're teaching 3 human beings to be perpetrators of the most intense and widespread torture known to humans - do you know much about how animals are treated in animal agriculture?

Quote:
If we are from the "dumb masses" as you say, then surely this shows you that it is difficult to influence people who already have their ideas set in stone. Any social idea you may have could end with you. What is to say the next generation will care about what you are hoping will change?
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Many of us did not have progressive, veg*n parents, and still ended up this way. That shows that change is possible. Sure, what's to say that the next generation will care about what you are hoping will change, whether you birth them or run into them on the street and give them "Why Vegan?"s You say in the next sentence that you don't expect your kids to be like you. So which is it? You also said in the post I linked to that your mother offers really unhealthy food - looks like you managed to change.

Quote:
It is rather unfair to imply that I would expect my children to be my mignions so to speak. If you raise a child to respect other beings, then this is a large reform, as there are not many such people out there.
You're not teaching them to respect other beings. You're teaching them to hurt and kill other beings, for a taste preference disguised as a false need.

Quote:
And if you do a good job, you can be sure that your children will turn out well.
You cannot be sure of that. Have you seriously never met a jerk who was raised by decent parents?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Well you are misinformed about nutrition. Why do you think your kids need animal flesh?

What kind of "moral awareness" are you talking about? It must not include not hurting and killing others who are weaker than oneself, and not enslaving others, because that's what's involved in meat eating. You're teaching 3 human beings to be perpetrators of the most intense and widespread torture known to humans - do you know much about how animals are treated in animal agriculture?

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Many of us did not have progressive, veg*n parents, and still ended up this way. That shows that change is possible. Sure, what's to say that the next generation will care about what you are hoping will change, whether you birth them or run into them on the street and give them "Why Vegan?"s You say in the next sentence that you don't expect your kids to be like you. So which is it? You also said in the post I linked to that your mother offers really unhealthy food - looks like you managed to change.

You're not teaching them to respect other beings. You're teaching them to hurt and kill other beings, for a taste preference disguised as a false need.

You cannot be sure of that. Have you seriously never met a jerk who was raised by decent parents?
1: A jerk with good parents: maybe the parents weren't neglectful, but providing food and love does not make a good parent on its own. Someone who is a jerk-- this is due to something their parents didn't do

2: I am not ignorant as to the possibility of raising kids to be vego. But to me, if it was not their choice, then they are too young.

3: My parents ate meat, but they taught me humanity toward other beings. My dad would remove cockroaches and spiders from the house to relocate them. Someone who grows up thinking cruelty to animals is normal, is hardly going to become vegeatarian. You cannot possibly claim that your choice to be vegetarian was yours alone and that your parents believe animal cruelty is good?

4: i said i don't expect my kids to be my mignions. But of course they will be like me. I raise them

5: I find it immensely rude that you would imply I am ignorant as to the way animals are treated. Why else would I be vegetarian?
 

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I didn't 'choose' to be vegetarian. My parents fed me what they ate and from when I was 3, that meant veg foods. When I was older, I was told that I could have meat if I wanted it. I never did.

What my parents did for me was wonderful. I never had to have that moment of realisation that the chicken on my plate was the same as the happy one I saw on tv clucking around a garden. I wasn't lied to like the daughter of an ex-co-worker, who asked whether meat was animals and was told 'yes, but just the ugly daddy ones, not the mummies or babies.' And when I grew up, I could hug my pets or watch wildlife in the garden without feeling any guilt.

You make choices every day for your child. You are choosing to feed them dead animals, a choice which not only means a life was lost and suffering was caused, but also means that you are letting your children participate in an activity that is profoundly wrong and if they do want to become vegetarian later they will not thank you for putting dead flesh in their mouths. If they are vegetarian now and want to eat meat later they are not going to be traumatised because they spent a few years eating vegetables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill View Post

1: A jerk with good parents: maybe the parents weren't neglectful, but providing food and love does not make a good parent on its own. Someone who is a jerk-- this is due to something their parents didn't do

2: I am not ignorant as to the possibility of raising kids to be vego. But to me, if it was not their choice, then they are too young.

3: My parents ate meat, but they taught me humanity toward other beings. My dad would remove cockroaches and spiders from the house to relocate them. Someone who grows up thinking cruelty to animals is normal, is hardly going to become vegeatarian. You cannot possibly claim that your choice to be vegetarian was yours alone and that your parents believe animal cruelty is good?

4: i said i don't expect my kids to be my mignions. But of course they will be like me. I raise them

5: I find it immensely rude that you would imply I am ignorant as to the way animals are treated. Why else would I be vegetarian?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

Your children haven't chosen to be meat eaters, YOU have chosen to feed them meat.
exactly. i don't see why this choice is more ethical in your opinion
 

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Studies show that eating habits are formed in early childhood, so I hope, Windmill, that you're at least feeding your children lots of plant foods. If they don't eat plenty of vegetables, fruits, grains, and legumes now they might not ever do so, which would be terrible for their health. Moreover, if they don't get to eat a wide variety of vegan options now, it's not even close to being a fair "choice" later in life.

If you need help getting your kiddos to eat their veggies, here are some tips
from the American Dietetic Association: http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6749

I am raising my son vegan and so I've done research on how to meet his nutritional needs. Here are some resources that might help you feel more confident feeding your children a vegan diet:

Keeping Kids Healthy section on vegan kids: http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welco...nchildren.html

The ADA's guide to important vegetarian nutrient sources (for all ages): http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6374

Vegan Health info page on vegan pregnancy and children: http://veganhealth.org/articles/preginfchil

The Vegetarian Resource Group's paper on vegetarian and vegan kids: http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/kids.htm

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine's paper called "Vegetarian Diets: Advantages for Children" http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vegetarian_kids.html

The American Dietetic Association recommendations for feeding vegan and vegetarian infants and toddlers: http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=8060.

Vegan Health page on vegan teens: http://veganhealth.org/articles/teens
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira View Post

exactly. i don't see why this choice is more ethical in your opinion
Because I know several people who were forced to be vegatarian and ate meat whenever their parents didn't know about it

The choice to give my children the choice is more about a long term best outcome. It may seem the best thing to never give them meat, but the way I see it is they will not likely go their entire life without meat. So, better guide them toward this choice to enable them to have a vegatarian life, than force them to be vegatarian now and likely have them eat meat in later life.

It is about looking toward the future and trying to predict what would be best for my children in developing themselves as people. And also about giving them the best chance to become vegetarians and remain vegatarians.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky_charm View Post

I didn't 'choose' to be vegetarian. My parents fed me what they ate and from when I was 3, that meant veg foods. When I was older, I was told that I could have meat if I wanted it. I never did.

What my parents did for me was wonderful. I never had to have that moment of realisation that the chicken on my plate was the same as the happy one I saw on tv clucking around a garden. I wasn't lied to like the daughter of an ex-co-worker, who asked whether meat was animals and was told 'yes, but just the ugly daddy ones, not the mummies or babies.' And when I grew up, I could hug my pets or watch wildlife in the garden without feeling any guilt.

You make choices every day for your child. You are choosing to feed them dead animals, a choice which not only means a life was lost and suffering was caused, but also means that you are letting your children participate in an activity that is profoundly wrong and if they do want to become vegetarian later they will not thank you for putting dead flesh in their mouths. If they are vegetarian now and want to eat meat later they are not going to be traumatised because they spent a few years eating vegetables.
Your parents gave you meat until you were 3. My children are not yet 3. There are studies that suggest that meat fats are linked to brain development in the early years, and I am unwilling to supply them with an entirely vegatarian diet for this reason also.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

Studies show that eating habits are formed in early childhood, so I hope, Windmill, that you're at least feeding your children lots of plant foods. If they don't eat plenty of vegetables, fruits, grains, and legumes now they might not ever do so, which would be terrible for their health. Moreover, if they don't get to eat a wide variety of vegan options now, it's not even close to being a fair "choice" later in life.

If you need help getting your kiddos to eat their veggies, here are some tips
from the American Dietetic Association: http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6749

I am raising my son vegan and so I've done research on how to meet his nutritional needs. Here are some resources that might help you feel more confident feeding your children a vegan diet:

Keeping Kids Healthy section on vegan kids: http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/welco...nchildren.html

The ADA's guide to important vegetarian nutrient sources (for all ages): http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=6374

Vegan Health info page on vegan pregnancy and children: http://veganhealth.org/articles/preginfchil

The Vegetarian Resource Group's paper on vegetarian and vegan kids: http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/kids.htm

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine's paper called "Vegetarian Diets: Advantages for Children" http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/vegetarian_kids.html

The American Dietetic Association recommendations for feeding vegan and vegetarian infants and toddlers: http://www.eatright.org/Public/content.aspx?id=8060.

Vegan Health page on vegan teens: http://veganhealth.org/articles/teens
I think it is great that your son is raised to be vegan. I believe that you will be successful in raising him into a good man. However, I have worked with children for a number of years and I remain convinced that the most possible chance of success lies in allowing them the choice when they are between 3 and 5.

I find it very condescending and unnecessary that you would imply I do not feed my family a wide variety of nutritious foods! You know nothing of my family or background. I have been a vegatarian for a long time and I loathe meat. It is a side serving occassionally for my children, who enjoy a mainly vegan diet with a piece of meat next to it sometimes. I do not see why I should have to justify this to you. I do appreciate the links however have no need for them as I have plenty of my own links, as well as nutritionist advice and several books.

I too hope that you are providing your son with the nutrients he needs.
 

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I think that we should trust that Windmill knows what is best for her and her family. How many omnis do we know that would jump down our throats for choosing to feed our kids a vegan diet? Aren't you all doing the same thing to her?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoia View Post

I think that we should trust that Windmill knows what is best for her and her family. How many omnis do we know that would jump down our throats for choosing to feed our kids a vegan diet? Aren't you all doing the same thing to her?
She's on a vegetarian messageboard making false statements about the health of vegetarian children. This requires a reaction, at the very least, a correction about nutrition for children.
 

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all this talk about kids and veg*nism make me more glad i don't have kids. i don't think i could accept it if my child decided to eat meat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill View Post

Because I know several people who were forced to be vegatarian and ate meat whenever their parents didn't know about it

The choice to give my children the choice is more about a long term best outcome. It may seem the best thing to never give them meat, but the way I see it is they will not likely go their entire life without meat. So, better guide them toward this choice to enable them to have a vegatarian life, than force them to be vegatarian now and likely have them eat meat in later life.

It is about looking toward the future and trying to predict what would be best for my children in developing themselves as people. And also about giving them the best chance to become vegetarians and remain vegatarians.
you're an ethical veg*n right? how will you handle your kids asking you why you made them eat meat when eating animals is wrong?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill View Post

Your parents gave you meat until you were 3. My children are not yet 3. There are studies that suggest that meat fats are linked to brain development in the early years, and I am unwilling to supply them with an entirely vegatarian diet for this reason also.
interesting. i've never heard of that. do you have links to the studies or can you tell me the names and who published them? i would like to read them.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sequoia View Post

I think that we should trust that Windmill knows what is best for her and her family.
Does what's "best" for the animals come in to play at all, when humans decide to cater to their taste buds and ignorance? On the one hand you have a human who wants animal flesh. On the other hand you have sentient beings who have their freedom and choices taken away from them from the miserable day they're born until their lives are taken away from them.

Watch Earthlings. If you've already watched it, watch it again because you probably forgot what's in it, to say what you did above. I could really give a crap what humans want to eat, when they have choices, and they cruelly choose the ones that involve suffering and death.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill View Post

Your parents gave you meat until you were 3. My children are not yet 3. There are studies that suggest that meat fats are linked to brain development in the early years, and I am unwilling to supply them with an entirely vegatarian diet for this reason also.
My brother had no meat from conception and he's fine too. My parents gave me meat because they hadn't been enlightened by vegetarianism yet. There are 100s of examples of veg and vegan children who are very healthy.
 

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Right now you are forcing them to eat meat. Your attempts to justify it make no sense. I know lots of raised vegetarians and none of us ate meat 'sneakily'- in fact we are disgusted by it. The best chance they have of being vegetarian is being taught that that's the right way to be, from now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill View Post

Because I know several people who were forced to be vegatarian and ate meat whenever their parents didn't know about it

The choice to give my children the choice is more about a long term best outcome. It may seem the best thing to never give them meat, but the way I see it is they will not likely go their entire life without meat. So, better guide them toward this choice to enable them to have a vegatarian life, than force them to be vegatarian now and likely have them eat meat in later life.

It is about looking toward the future and trying to predict what would be best for my children in developing themselves as people. And also about giving them the best chance to become vegetarians and remain vegatarians.
 

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I don't think they will sneak it in if you raise them right. and even if at some point of life they will decide to experiment with meat (just like with drugs), there is a bigger chance they will not stick to it if they are not getting used to the taste of meat and are also raised knowing where it comes from. i mean, no matter what you make a choice for them now. they will decide what to do when they are older anyways, and them getting meat now rally doesn't seem to me as a way to have them make a different choice later...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill View Post

I find it very condescending and unnecessary that you would imply I do not feed my family a wide variety of nutritious foods! You know nothing of my family or background. I have been a vegatarian for a long time and I loathe meat. It is a side serving occassionally for my children, who enjoy a mainly vegan diet with a piece of meat next to it sometimes. I do not see why I should have to justify this to you. I do appreciate the links however have no need for them as I have plenty of my own links, as well as nutritionist advice and several books.
I think she was just trying to be helpful. Sheesh.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky_charm View Post

There are 100s of examples of veg and vegan children who are very healthy.
Millions!
There are millions of veg children worldwide. Many were raised vegetarian since birth.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Does what's "best" for the animals come in to play at all, when humans decide to cater to their taste buds and ignorance? On the one hand you have a human who wants animal flesh. On the other hand you have sentient beings who have their freedom and choices taken away from them from the miserable day they're born until their lives are taken away from them.

Watch Earthlings. If you've already watched it, watch it again because you probably forgot what's in it, to say what you did above. I could really give a crap what humans want to eat, when they have choices, and they cruelly choose the ones that involve suffering and death.
I don't think she should be feeding her kids meat, but I am also not in a position to vilify her for doing so.
 
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